I wanted to continue discussion on this subject without continuing a tangent on the OP’s thread.
I wanted to continue discussion on this subject without continuing a tangent on the OP’s thread.
Amy Berger can tell it better than I can but I will say there’s a lot of conflict among the experts about how much we should eat and how much is too much and what happens if it’s too much… so I prefer to lean toward the expert that says not to fear protein because my N=1 tells me I can lose weight using satiety as a guide and when I look at @juice’s accountability thing, I see very high protein amounts, much like what I consume, and his weight loss continues.
and here’s an interesting thread on the same topic. Lots of good information there to consider:
There’s no such thing as “excess” protein.
Guys, at least read the linked post before responding.
I want to talk about what Ilana mentioned. The other processes going on.
I am in no way afraid of endogenous glucose, in fact I’m looking for some, could you spare any?
No such a thing as excessive protein?
Q: You lose a lot of body fat and end up with lose skin hanging off your body? (e.g. flabby skin under the arms) A: TOO MUCH PROTEIN!
So there must be “…such a thing?”
I assume you would also think that Naomi Whittel must be out of her mind as well as Dr. Jason Fung???
 Autophagy: Intermittent fasting protein cycling (IFPC) - Naomi Whittel “…Protein Cycling (PC) The next piece of reclaiming your youth is the protein cycling or PC part. PC is the practice of alternating between periods of low protein consumption and normal to high protein consumption. …”
I read that link every day as it developed. I know that @Ilana_Rose’s post varies a bit from my belief but I won’t dismiss or refute her statement because I have little knowledge in how protein may or may not affect men and women differently. I’ve read other anecdotal posts that seem to confirm what she is saying.
Excess protein is that little piece I either give to my (happy) dog or wrap up and save for later since I’m too full to eat it.
@PaulL when you have the time, do you have a link to this study?
@Ilana_Rose when you have the time, on your home PC would you share these resources?
Yes… I’m sorry. I wasn’t sure if anyone would be interested. I’ll put something together after my bath. It’s something I’ve wanted to do for a while anyhow, but I have a chronic case of “the lazies” that keeps interfering.
My intention had been to pull out the more relevant bits and discuss them at some point. But that might turn into an all day writing binge that may in turn never get done so I’ll post these two resources for now and perhaps they will just lead to some discussion. They are a bit dense though.
I’ll include a Wikipedia link that is a short form of some of the material in the above links and which probably already has as much depth as most people would want on this topic.
Before I go make dinner I’ll just pull out one of the graphics from the first link that I think expresses well how the various amino acids wind up in our energy powerhouse, the Krebs Cycle. As you can see, although several of them can be used to make glucose via gluconeogenesis, none of them must use this pathway and they can ALL still wind up as intermediaries in the Krebs cycle.
Excellent. I’ll pore over these! Thank you!
I know I can come off as anti-protein but I’m really not at all. In fact I’m extremely interested in zero carb myself. But I am also very concerned about getting ahead of the evidence that loads of protein is healthful.
On the subject of a high protein diet’s effectiveness for weight loss I’m actually quite convinced that it works very well for a lot of people. I don’t at all doubt the N=1’s of you and Juice and several others here. But, as you said, there are also many others here who say higher protein levels knock them right out of ketosis and there may be a sex difference in how this falls out.
For this reason I don’t think it the right advice to tell newbies right out of the gate that ad libetum protein works fine with keto. It’s actually in opposition to how a ketogenic diet is defined by the two keto dudes, and I think the reason for that is that this advice fails with a significant proportion of people.
I don’t mind at all telling newbies not to worry about some extra protein early on, but I think it’s a good idea to qualify that with the reminder that they may at some point need to tighten the reins on protein if the have a major stall since in some people it will significantly affect the rate of fat burning.
I also have a suspicion that some people’s satiety signaling is out of whack with respect to protein. For example, I can only eat a very reasonable amount of protein in a single meal, but my husband can seemingly eat a virtual mountain of steak in one sitting.
100% agree - Newbies should have a chance to find out what true keto prescribed fat-adaptation feels like as well as a chance to straighten out their potentially messed up satiety signaling. I do not think Carnivore, Vegan keto, high-protein or fasting should come into the picture until fat-adapted people are asking how to plateau bust. I am as guilty as anyone of throwing IF/EF out a little too early but, I have learned and am trying to keep it straight.
If we push the exotic on the newbies, they don’t go through the learning process on the basics and miss a lot of general knowledge chasing that next few pounds - potentially bouncing because they let their old CICO background creep in and then we lose them.
As far as the question of whether excess protein is possible - or the truth (or not) of the statement “there is no excess protein” - I don’t know but, I have an opinion.
We have lots of body builders in their 50s and 60s that, due to bro-science, overdid protein and having health problems / dropping dead (admittedly, they also did a lot of other anti-longevity things like steroids).
But, Carnivore seems to be working well for lots of people and some are truly flourishing (e.g. Dr. Shawn Baker).
I suspect that where this will finally land is that if you take protein supplements - it will be easy to have excess protein (i.e. too much for your system to deal with in a healthy way - overworking your internal organs for no good reason).
If you get protein from natural sources - it will be difficult (but still possible) to overdo protein (for example, Carnivore on lean meats as a bro-science fat fearing bodybuilding competitor might try - a dozen chicken breasts per day for example).
But, if you get protein from natural sources and have a reasonable amount fat also (even near 50/50 on calories), I think you might be fine.
Not a medical professional - all of the above is just opinion - a guess as to what we’ll determine about upping protein beyond keto (while still restricting carbs to keto levels).
Yes, but this particular experiment has a small sample size, is entirely uncontrolled, and is of relatively short duration with respect to human lifespan.
For example, some of the carnivores are actually keeping tightly to ketogenic principles. I think I’ve heard Amber O’Hearn say say her calories from fat are at 80%. I have much fewer concerns about a truly ketogenic-carnivore diet as that experiment has been massively tested in various human populations.
Part of my concerns stem from the very fact that there are no known populations that eat a diet that is very high in protein and I’m left wondering why that might be.
We have good scientific evidence that a very high protein diet might be stressful in a variety of ways and pointing to a few people who are seemingly healthy after ten years out of a 90+ year lifespan is just not good enough to counter those concerns for me…yet.
I was just bringing in examples to explain my prediction on where we might eventually land on the excess protein debate.
I am a fellow skeptic with lots being stated on this thread (from comment 40 and down - I value Dr. Rhonda’s opinion greatly in the video):
I’m sorry, I wasn’t really disagreeing with anything you said so much as using your post as an opportunity for elucidating my own position.
Yes, I’ve read your comments in that thread and think our concerns are actually very closely aligned. The main difference between us is that I think I may lean a bit more heavily in favour of the likelihood that animal meat and fat may be all that humans need for all of their nutritional requirements.
But…and this is a big “but”, I only believe this with respect to much more nose to tail animal consumption than we tend to have in the west. Beyond that we are really just experimenting with our long-term health.
I’m rereading the comments in that thread that you linked to try to find the Rhonda Patrick video but I haven’t found it yet. Could you relink it here, please?
Sure (yes - non-nose-to-tail is that much farther away from ancestral eating - where a kill was expensive so everything was used that could possible be used).
Thank you. I had seen this before but I was happy to rewatch it. I have a deep respect for Rhonda Patrick and I agree with her concerns about how untested the carnivore diet is but I actually disagree with a lot of what she says in this video.
For one, I think that she has a strong pro-plant bias that’s very evident and it seems to be interfering with her imagination on what some possible positive benefits a plantless diet might confer. In that entire discussion she focusses almost entirely on imagined, but also untested, beneficial side effects of carnivory rather then on possible direct positive effects of a plantless diet.
Just take the hypothesis that carnivory leads to calorie restriction and is thus fasting mimicking and fingering those benefits rather than any unique to a plantless diet. I see no reason, based upon how I’ve seen carnivores eat, to believe that a carnivore diet would be calorie-restrictive. In fact, if anything I think they eat more calories. I have to wonder how many she’s met or talked to.
A much more likely hypothesis to me is the much higher digestibility of animal meats and fats leading to fewer intestinal stressors. Fibre just might be awful for loads of people. That’s something I’d love to see tested properly.
She also ignores that the studies showing all the purported benefits of plant consumption are comparing a high plant diet to a low plant but still high carb diet. In other words, when you pit high plant consumption against high carbage consumption, high plant comes out the winner.
Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts on that video. I apologize if I seem overly opinionated but I’m really trying to keep an open mind on this topic and I felt she was being a bit dismissive.
I agree very much with everything you said here. I’ve been following Rhonda for two years, actually after first hearing her on this podcast (earlier episode).
My issues with a lot of what she says is she’s basically citing “ghost studies” since there’s no reference made to any of them. I actually have asked her on multiple occasions to share her sources or elaborate on them (not only for this but various stuff) and she just stonewalls me.
“Well, there’s a study that suggests this may be this, etc”
Right, but which study, and what does the data say? What was the subject eating, what is the sample size? RCT or epi study? Length of the experiment? All of these things are so critical to every argument she made and she really just glossed right over it.
“You can get most of these benefits from fasting, I think.”
I get that fasting is popular and has had great effects for many people, myself included. But maybe it’s not intended to be such an everyday thing that it’s become. Perhaps it’s just that our dietary habits as a species are so out of whack, that not eating has become healthier than eating in many cases.