Excess Protein Discussion

(mole person) #21

Did you ever find the 30 pages of referenced material on her thoughts on the carnivore diet that she mentions at the start? I’d be interested in having a look at that.

That’s very well put.

I have another thought along a similar vein. It may be that decades on a poor diet are so messing up some of our guts that they feel better on vacation. My difference with Rhonda Patrick is that I think this vacation may also arise from a food type that is more fully digested before it reaches the colon.

(Carl Keller) #22

As always, you make brilliant points and I totally respect what you post. :slight_smile:

I never suggest loads. My escape clause is always to use satiety as a guide. As long as that mechanism is not faulty, loads of protein won’t be eaten. In your husband’s case, and in my own at various times of my life, the tendency is to keep eating because what we are eating is delicious. We eclipse that point of satiety and reach a point of literally being stuffed… and that’s not good eating behavior for sure.

Probably the most common problem I see in new members is that they are hungry and/or stressed about not hitting macros. I honestly feel like they won’t succeed if they are stressed and hungry and it’s so easy to just say, “Oh you will get used to it, try to relax”. But if we can get them to relax by eating a little more protein and fat that enables them to get a better handle on ghrelin and hopefully that will self-regulate and lower the amount of protein they will need in the future. I honestly feel like we are failing them if we don’t tell them to eat more if they say they are hungry.

I realize this and it’s actually a fairly controversial issue amongst the keto experts. It might be prudent of me to to allude to that when I make comments about new members being hungry… and it certainly won’t hurt. I will say that I’ve harped the message about eating protein and fat to satiety and not to worry about those macros so much, but I can’t say I’ve had anyone tell me they tried it and it screwed them.

I totally agree with you. I believe it’s the carbs that have screwed up what we perceive to be proper and that by eliminating carbs, we do get better at understanding how leptin and ghrelin are supposed to work. In the beginning this is definitely a challenge and it does take some time to understand these hormones.

Your post has definitely made me more aware that I should be conscious of the fact that my belief (and Amy Berger’s) may not work for everyone and that I should incorporate the phrase “In some people…” more often. That’s an easy fix. :slight_smile:

(Robert C) #23

Hi again :grinning:

This statement made me sit up a bit and it took me a while to figure out why.

It seems you are stepping into your idea of what is in her imagination to try to discern motivation for her arguments (i.e. she seems plant oriented so maybe extra harsh on Carnivore).

But, as far as I know, she is Patreon based (only) and wouldn’t make anything if someone did or did not choose Vegan, Carnivore, etc.

Yet, at the same time, lots of people here are accepting (without question) information from Carnivore advocates that have their income tied up in speaking engagements, web sites and books based on Carnivore (i.e. new hot trend sells well).

They really have good reasons to skip over or minimize counter-Carnivore, yet are listened to intensely (I suspect because lots of people really like steak). Then they are defended far farther than the total amount of backing support, studies etc. warrant.

(Running from stupidity) #24

I’ll tell them that, but it’s also clear that my advice is initial advice only.

It’s actually in opposition to how a ketogenic diet is defined by the two keto dudes

More to the point, it’s in opposition to definitions from actual experts in the area.

But other experts agree with it as an idea.

So it’s confusing and anything besides straightforward, yeah.

I don’t mind at all telling newbies not to worry about some extra protein early on



(e.g. Dr. Shawn Baker).

Having followed Shawn on IG for a fair while before I couldn’t take it any more, I’m not convinced he’s all that worried about the reality as much as the perception. Some of the wonky stuff he’s posted simply because it’s got a headline he agrees with is concerning.

If you’re not disclosing the study reference, then you’re not quoting a study at all. You might as well be making it up. The point of quoting studies is so that they can be checked by anyone who wants to see if you’re telling the truth.

I get that fasting is popular and has had great effects for many people, myself included. But maybe it’s not intended to be such an everyday thing that it’s become.

It’s one of the (bigger) issues here on the forum, that people are pushing it on noobs because doing so makes them feel good about THEMSELVES, not because it’s good for noobs.

Perhaps it’s just that our dietary habits as a species are so out of whack, that not eating has become healthier than eating in many cases.

Well, that’s impossible to argue with. (Referenced studies or not :slight_smile:

Yup, she’s big on that. Again.

(mole person) #25

Thank you! I always enjoy reading yours and think you give excellent and empathetic advice to the newbies.

I think my preference would be to tell new people who complain of hunger to initially try the high end of the protein macro at 1.5 g/kg of lean mass and to supplement that with fat to satiety, and then if, after two months, they aren’t losing fat to reconsider a lower protein macro.

However, I also absolutely agree that starting with just the “<20 g of carbs” advice takes a big load off the new people.

I guess I feel that new people, in general, can handle a certain amount of nuance and we can tell them “don’t worry too much about this right now, but be aware that…”

I completely agree with this, but I also worry that we lack data on how many people bail on this diet because they don’t lose weight initially. I think this is a tightrope that we have to walk carefully.

(Robert C) #26

His Carnivore book on pre-sale on Amazon - available in April - probably important to him at this point.

(Running from stupidity) #27

Seems likely :slight_smile:

I stopped following him a few months ago because his “I’m a doctor, and I’ll mention it all the time for the cred, but I’ll just deal with everything as though I’m a sleazy salesman” did my head in.

(Robert C) #28

He seemed honest to me from what I heard on several podcasts but, with his body, he could probably eat marshmallows and crap gold bricks - which doesn’t translate well to what most people do on a marshmallow only diet.

The point is, he may very well be right (he seemed well researched) but I have no trouble ignoring his n=1.

(Running from stupidity) #29

And that’s the tension between these two things, yeah.

I guess I feel that new people, in general, can handle a certain amount of nuance

Especially recently, the noobs forum is disproving your faith :slight_smile:

(Robert C) #30

I think this advice for a newbie makes sense after you have confirmed that stress issues, sleep issues and over exercising are not things driving satiety issues (over exercising being a sedentary person that suddenly started a fitness routine along with this dietary change - not an athlete). Those should be fixed first or verified as non-issues (my opinion) during newbie keto fat-adaptation before moving to higher protein suggestions (which makes a good next step if they are all non-issues).

(Carl Keller) #31

This is when it’s our duty to point out the NSVs. If it’s not too vain to quote myself:

“Keto is about rehabbing our hormones and healing our bodies and weight loss just happens to be a positive side effect (in many cases). My advice is to ask yourself how many non-scale victories you can claim in the past xx weeks and then ask yourself again if it’s really not working.”

(mole person) #32

Oh, as I said I respect Rhonda Patrick and I in no way intended to imply that I thought that she had monetary interests tied to her plant bias.

The sort of bias I meant, was the same sort that any scientist might have who has a favorite hypothesis.

But, as we are all here very aware of, such a biases can not only lead to asking the wrong questions, but also to looking at the data that is available in an incorrect light.

I am not only getting my feelings about a plant bias on her behalf from this video clip, but from many other videos I’ve watched her in where she discusses the importance of dietary plant micronutrients as well as micronutrients from MANY supplements.

This may be true, but you will not find that I am one such person. I’ve regularly argued that what can be inferred about Berger and Bikman’s positions is sometimes overstated here. And although I respect both of those, about some other big name protein enthusiast I’ve been downright negative on my thoughts on their scientific ethics.

(mole person) #33

For @Dread1840, @juice, @RobC and anyone else who may be interested in Rhonda Patrick’s references.


With respect to the 30 + pages of referenced notes on carnivory that she mentions around the 13 minute mark of that JRE podcast, they are nowhere to be found online although I have seen many people asking for it.

After re-watching the point in the podcast where she mentions it, I can only conclude that she wrote it for her own personal reference and was not implying that it was available for others to read.

(Running from stupidity) #34

You’re probably right, I suspect, but if someone is going to keep referring to studies and so on in interviews, then it’s incumbent on them to make those studies (or links to them, or at least name them to the extent they can be found) available to be checked.

(mole person) #35

The only thing he doesn’t say he’s the world’s best at is… Narcissism.

Sorry, perhaps harsh…but the ridiculous lengths of time in various podcasts of him talking up his own achievements makes me laugh. The interviewers are often clearly taking great pains in attempting to steer him away from the subject of himself.

(Running from stupidity) #36

Yep, couldn’t agree more. I’d like to listen to his podcast with Zack, but he dominates it to the point that you virtually never hear Zack (except when Shawn invites him to ask a question(!)), and don’t hear enough from the actual talent.

Even putting aside the atrocious audio quality, it’s more trouble than its worth.

(mole person) #37

Bingo. By his own admission, he’s an elite athlete. There are genetics involved in that; not just carnivory.

(Cheryl Cline) #38

Totally agree. I’ve only been doing Keto for 3 weeks and already freaking over the whole protein thing. I measure my blood ketones nearly everyday. It seems to me that its purely the amount of carbs involved. I’ve had over 100 grams of protein before and was at 2.6 mmol/L and my carbs were 25 or below. The minute I go over 25 carbs, I drop between 1.2 -1.6, with my protein varing. I’m going to quit stressing the protein thing. I’ve lost 8 1/2 lbs and 1 1/2 to 2 inches over all. I do enjoy this website.

(Rob Grantham) #39

I only know how it makes me feel when i consume larger amounts of protein… im starving like every 2-3 hours… dont ask me why. I also tend to be more irritable and get hangry.

(mole person) #40

Hmmmm… that’s very interesting. I’ve been zero carb for a while now and I’ve definitely noticed that I’m frequently hungrier a couple of hours after my one meal than I was when I was eating more vegetables. My protein has definitely increased substantially.