Question from first timer

(Ivy) #8

Can you go into full deets mode about the pain or any effects I may exerience,

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

The Dudes’ standard recommendation is 1.0-1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of lean body mass per day. Other experts recommend up to 2.0 g/kg. There are concerns both about excessive protein possibly inhibiting ketogenesis, and also about our losing the ability to assimilate protein and hang on to muscle mass as we age. There is also quite a bit of variability in individual protein needs, so you will probably have to experiment to find the correct proportion of protein to fat to assuage your hunger pangs.

There is evidence to suggest that we, like all mammals, have an instinct for how much protein we need, and some anecdotal data to suggest that no amount of fat is satisfying unless our need for protein is met first. This is all in a low- or no-carbohydrate context, of course.

(Ivy) #10

How many calories should I eat?

Over 2000 kcals is how Ive been doing for the first 13 days. Although keto calculator says 1400 kcals andc my BMR is 1380 or whatever.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

Eat to satisfy your hunger, and don’t count the calories. In the initial stages, that might be a lot of food, but most people find their appetite dropping after a few weeks, as their body adapts.

If that hasn’t happened by about four weeks from now, come back, and we’ll help you figure it out. Many people, who were conditioned by the standard advice to restrict calories, have found that their weight loss didn’t start until they started eating more food, not less.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #12

To add to what I said here.

Relevant background. I started keto at the age of 71 with a 4-day water fast. Once in ketosis on day three I never experienced any discomfort or weakness or anything else negative with keto. I felt what I call ‘carb hunger’ on day two. Since that day (Jan 03/17) I have never felt hunger, other than slight and fleeting very subtle ‘reminders’ that I should probably/maybe eat. This mostly/exclusively happens in the morning after awakening from an overnight 12 hour+ fast. When I really need to eat I feel cold or tired/weak - not hungry - my metabolism tells me I need energy not food. I lost 35 pounds in the first 6 months and experienced no hunger at all. I have maintained a weight of 145 pounds and BF of 14-15% since. I am 6’ and my current weight and BF% are the same as at the age of 18. I’ll take it.

I don’t have reliable hunger and satiety signals - interestingly, I did when I ate SAD. But they went away with SAD. To determine how much/what to eat, I use my overall weight and BF%. So I measure/weigh all my food and eat to macros (2:1 fat:protein grams) and a caloric ‘window’ (2300-2700 kcals). As long as I eat within those parameters I maintain. If I drop below for several consecutive days I start to lose. If I exceed for several successive days I start to gain. Staying within my macros and ‘window’ works well for me. For a few months I lowered the fat:protein ratio because I felt like I needed to eat more protein.

A couple of years in I got interested in measuring ketones to see what was happening. Not wanting to donate blood, I bought a Ketonix to measure BrAce. It was interesting for several months, but not very useful because the measurements were all over the map in what seemed like a random way. In addition it’s a bit problematic to correlate BrAce to the other ketones that really matter. So I now simply presume my body is doing what it needs to do and I don’t worry much about it. One thing I do feel some concern about is the concentration of β-hydroxybutyrate. I’d like to know it’s at least within a healthy range since I understand it is healthful for an aging brain to get it there and keep it there. So I will likely get a blood meter at some point, but not yet. I remain in full cognitive health so don’t yet have the insentive to start donating blood. If a continuous ketone monitor ever hits the scene, I would certainly consider it. Not holding my breath, though.

For a couple of years I ate about 200-250 grams of bok choy almost daily. If one really thinks there’s a need to eat veggies I always recommend it over anything else. More nutritive ‘bang for the buck’ carb-wise. At the same time I ate avocados almost daily during the summer and manzanilla stuffed olives during the winter. For the last couple of years I’ve eaten no veggies at all. I still eat avocados and stuffed olives a few times per year.

You may find this of interest:

PS: Keto is the best thing I ever did for myself. :heart_eyes:

(Jane) #13

Answers above - my personal opinion and experiences only.

Good luck!

(Jane) #14

Since you have asked about carnivore several times, let me point you to a thread. @Fangs is our resident carnivore teacher…helper… been-there-done-that-got-the-tshirt on carnivore. She runs a monthly carnivore chat thread and if you just jump on and start asking questions she or others on the thread can educate you in the ways of the carnivore. If you are considering carnivore just to speed up fat adaption I don’t think it will matter, but carnivore has other benefits you may be interested in. And carnivores HIGHLY discourage fasting for men or women.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

The only risk is when pregnant or lactating women on a keto diet try to fast. That can cause a condition called “euglycaemic ketoacidosis.” Otherwise, the risk from fasting is zero. Women fast safely all the time.


The wording of your post definitely has that feel to it, nothing about what Allie said seems stressed, that’s good advise either way.

(Allie) #17

I did not say I was stressed out.

You didn’t need to, the tone of all your posts clearly shows you are. You’re tying yourself in knots trying to do too many things at once instead of just doing the basics required and trusting the process. Carbs below 20g and time - that’s it, truly.

Adaptation takes time, for some it takes months, and stress slows it down so you seriously do need to relax and trust the process. Yeah you’ll likely slip up from time to time, like the mega-stressed post you made about having too much cream and demanding people to tell you what day you’re at in a process that has no timescale… just chill, get used to keeping carbs low and focus on finding ways to feel as good as possible.

(Jane) #18

Good point.

I know when I was pregnant I could not fast. I was eating a SAD diet, but if I went too long without eating when I was >6 months along I got the shakes.

I had an OSHA-required physical when I was about 7 months along. I refused to fast for the blood draw. My BG was still around 85. When I told the doc I didn’t fast he raised his eyebrows. Baby was growing so fast at that point I needed fuel for both of us.

He was such an idiot. Going down his checklist he asked me to stand on one foot. I refused. He then asked me to touch my toes and I glared at him and said “I can’t even SEE my toes!” Nope. I was surprised at how many of my blood markers were out of range. I took them to my ob-gyn and he laughed and said “that’s normal - you are pregnant!”. I was relieved as I was worried something was wrong.


Intermittent fasting and even EF is fine - if you don’t force it on you, at least.

My reply to many of your questions… Whatever you feel right. Or experience it’s right later, sometimes we mess it up but realize it later… Or we need to experiment a lot to find our sweet spot.

I eat 3-5 times in a big, 8 hour long window (in extreme cases 2 or 6) but that’s me :wink: I simply eat when I get hungry or have some other strong enough urge to eat. It’s not deciding about something and doing that, no matter what. You may eat without hunger and not with soft hunger, I did both when I had a good reason for it but if your body want fuel, you should give it fuel. As much as it wants at the moment. When I get totally satiated with a tiny meal, I eat the next very soon, it’s very natural to me.

I fast since ages, I didn’t stop just because I went keto. Some people need to get fat adapted first, some people never will stop eating in a big eating window as that works for them… And some of us obviously do IF on day 1 just like we did on our previous woe. I have nothing against starting keto and IF together if it’s not forceful, comes naturally enough, feels good and doesn’t even trigger undereating as that isn’t good.
Many people think people must do IF on keto, nope, no one should force it and some people just don’t do it naturally.
And you don’t need to force a fast just because you ate more carbs… If your body wants fuel, give it fuel. Good fuel.

No one can tell you how you should do it, keto isn’t a woe with many rules and we are all different, we change too. Eat little carbs and try to find your sweet spot. If some advice doesn’t work, feel free to ignore it.

You have time. Just eat low-carb and you probably will realize when something is off and needs tweaking… Or you just go and try new things at some point but first get comfortable on keto, build new habits… :slight_smile:

If you don’t like lard, tallow and duck fat, what if you don’t eat them…? Some of us should even stay away from added fats in bigger quantities but if we use some, there are other options. Most people like butter. I use a little coconut oil, it’s clearly tasteless but that’s fine, I just fry tasty things in it.

Protein: 1-2g/kg for LBM is a common range, I agree with it myself. Many of us go higher even on average, I wouldn’t force it down if there are no problems but there is a thing as too much protein. It’s just not normal to reach for most of us.

Fat adaptation is easy. You just eat little enough carbs and it will happen in some weeks. I needed 7, it’s a pretty normal time for it. It may or may not bring a big change, it’s different for different people. Just like ketosis may bring huge benefits or nothing noticeable.

Vegetables didn’t hinder my fat adaptation (I never heard about such a thing anyway) but skipping them is very beneficial for some of us. But it may be come way after keto and fat adaptation.

BPC isn’t needed, I personally would never even try it :smiley: (I am not against it in general, it’s just one of the worst ideas for me personally.) Fat adaptation is a bit like ketosis: you eat little carbs and it will happen, don’t worry (if there are exceptions, they must be super rare. there are billions of people, there are so many weird conditions but normally a human easily gets into ketosis and gets fat adapted. you don’t need to worry this much about this, worrying actually causes problems)!

I call the thing at 7 weeks that suddenly changed my hunger fat adaptation :smiley: (I uncertainly call a higher/deeper level of fat adaptation that I lost my water weight changes… But I am not sure about that.) The timing was right so it probably was that, what else?

Carnivore, huhh. It’s a tad uncertain, there are multiple definitions… I am simple, only animal products (+spices and other tiny things because I am that relaxed) is technically carnivore to me but I don’t consider a woe with lots of sugar (lactose) carnivore. So just because I can drink 1 liter milk in an hour without a problem, I don’t do that on carnivore. I don’t do that for numerous reasons, actually.
Some carnivores consume dairy, others don’t. Many people has problems with it while others don’t.
Eggs are carnivore.
Animals fats are carnivore, obviously. I just write them as they may come not together with actual meat :slight_smile:

Calories are individual (and even the same person don’t eat the same amount all the time, usually). Keto or carnivore don’t have some forced fixed calorie intake, it would make no sense. Eat the amount you need.
They don’t even have a fixed fat/protein ratio as that is individual too (my ratio varies a lot and I am only one person).

Sounds good but of course, no one can tell your energy need. Let alone a mere calculator.

(Ivy) #20

Could I have BPC with or right after a meal? I dont have any special preference for it or anything, just know that it has kcals.

As a newbie, would that be the only way to enjoy it? Im doing 1-2 meals a day.
Or am I supposed to eat whenever hungry and not do OMAD /2MAD before fat adapt?

(Allie) #21

BPC is meant to be a meal replacement but some choose to have it in addition to meals. Not ideal if your goal is fat loss though.


It’s as the others: you can do whatever you wants and you should do whatever suits you.

Most of us prefer eating food when hungry but I can understand it’s not that simple or easy for everyone. If I had a huge energy need, even I would add extra fat like crazy, I suppose… But my needs are too easy to meet in no time so I rather enjoy my proper food. I need my nutrients too anyway. And BPC wouldn’t satiate my hunger at all so… But it may be a good idea for many others even along with a meal.
(My old memories say BPC has usually very many calories - probably can be consumed in smaller amounts, though…?)

To simplify things, let’s say you should eat whenever you are hungry. It may or may not be OMAD or TMAD. Most of us aren’t for forced timing but if you get hungry once a day, OMAD sounds the right, natural way to eat (unless it causes problems like undereating, overeating - once met someone who can’t eat less than 4000 kcal on OMAD and it was too much for him -, being too stuffed etc.). OMAD/TMAD mix is something close to me but my body decides when I can have OMAD. If I get really hungry, I eat.
Especially for beginners, why not to do it comfortably if it’s possible? The changes are probably big anyway…

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23

@IvyKCKO Some of my thoughts on coffee, for what it’s worth:

(Ivy) #24

Fasting FAQ ceases all fasting except 16:8 /NOT EXTENDED for newbies not yet fat adapted.

(Ivy) #25

What’s the lower end of what a newbie can consider adequate fat for a day?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #26

As Dr. Phinney adivses, eat very little carbohydrate, a reasonable amount of protein, and fat to satiety.

(Ivy) #27

Helpful. I didn’t know why carnivore eats eggs.

Eggs have carbs in them.

Carnivore arose out of ZC: Zero-Carb. I get it now.

Im carnivore/planning to be but with just getting through some SAD veggies I still have, for now. Only 3 bags!