Newbie! trying not to tie myself in knots about getting keto perfect

(Jane) #31

True, but for most people that chase ketones they think the higher their ketones the faster they will burn fat and I don’t believe that is true, since we can only measure the ketones floating around in our blood. We have no idea what our bodies are doing with the fat we eat, the body fat we burn, etc - no way to directly measure so we just have to trust in the process.

#32

Hence the misconception. We know that overeating on fat leads to ketone production but we also know that fasting leads to a greater increase in ketone production. Therefore it seems to me that the ketones produced from overeating on fat is to prevent the deleterious effects from overeating fat and we shouldn’t chase ketones in this unhealthy way. The ketones produced during fasting on the other hand are for fat burning, tissue repair, muscle sparing, etc… and this seems to be the healthy way to chase ketones. Via intermittent fasting/eating.

It’s like the latest podcast with Joe Rogan and Rhonda Patrick where Rhonda was chasing ketones by overeating on fat. Then saying that ketosis is hard and everyone is doing it wrong while she’s doing it wrong. :grimacing:

(Jane) #33

good grief.

I enjoy watching my ketones rise when I am fasting but my numbers are consistent so I stopped wasting the strips. Usually by day 2 I see some decent numbers - way higher than my normal levels when eating keto.

(Cheryl Meyers) #34

If you are also doing intermittent fasting (IF, anything less than a 24 hour or longer fast) then black coffee is recommended instead of adding cream. From what I have read/heard, IF “clean fasting” is only water, salt and black coffee or tea outside your eating window. The theory behind this is that taking anything else in during the fasting hours will limit the effectiveness of the fast or speed of body fat loss. (No reference to ketones, just how quickly you can lose weight by IF.)
If you aren’t doing IF, then enjoy the cream in your coffee! KCKO :slightly_smiling_face:

#35

It seems you’ve misunderstood me.

I concur with not wasting money on ketone strips or measuring ketones.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #36

@IvyKCKO You seem to be a little obsessive/compulsive about this. Everyone here is throwing out what they know (or think they know) and/or what works for them. Might work for you, might not. You have to experiment a little and drop whatever doesn’t work for you. If you’re really in this to lose weight, tell yourself however many times you must every day: “The less I have to lose the slower it comes off”. There are multiple health benefits from keto, no matter how much or little excess fat you burn. In the long term, the health benefits will be the ultimate payoff.

Stop obsessing about every little thing. Explore the wonderful world of fat and protein rich food. There’s more out there than you ever imagined. Forget about carbs. You don’t need them so don’t eat them. Sure, there are incidental carbs attached to lots of fat/protein foods. But it’s easy to keep them inconsequential.

The most important thing - in my opinion - is to remain in ketosis consistently. Lots of stuff happens when you start keto and you only interfere with the process by not staying in ketosis. You do that by keeping your carbs sub-20 grams per day, the fewer the better. It takes time. Keto is not magic nor miraculous. You don’t fix the damage caused by eating SAD in a few weeks or months. But you are young and you will fix it!

Best wishes.

Question from first timer
(Ivy) #37

How much protein would be too much for me? 250 gr ? 300 ? 200 ? I used to eat 150 all the time becuase it was the heaviest I ever was and went down slowly to 130, and I was 150 earlier this year

(Polly) #38

That is a really good question Ivy, but I am afraid it is one to discover for yourself by experimenting. None of us will have the answer to that question because we are all different in our needs and tolerances. Anyone who gives you a definitive answer is probably just basing it on their own experience or the accumulated experiences of a few friends and associates. Such answers can only give you a rough guide, and the fact you are asking the question in the terms in which you ask it suggest that you already know what the rough guidelines are.

(Jane) #39

Protein macro is a minimum, not a max. Eat as much as you want is my advice.

(Bob M) #40

Test out higher and lower fat and see what happens. I’ve found that higher protein is better for me. For instance, ham instead of pepperoni. Lean beef instead of fatty. But you’ll have to figure out if you’re the same.

And even I have questions about this. If I add goat cheese or suet (both high in saturated fat) to my meal, I something think this helps with satiety. However, I haven’t calorie matched it, so it could be just more calories. Need to perform better testing one of these days.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #41

Richard Morris, one of the Two Keto Dudes who run this site, has calculated that 3.2 grams of protein per kg of lean body mass is the point at which ammonia toxicity starts to be of concern. This is because excess amino acids cannot be stored; instead, they must be deaminated and dealt with, and the resulting ammonia has to be converted to uric acid and excreted.

The uric acid pathway has a limit to how much ammonia it can handle. So if you start to smell ammonia on your breath or in your perspiration, you are probably eating too much protein and should cut back.

Kidney issues
#42

No one can tell but you should feel when it’s too much. I personally try to stay around 2g/kg for LBM as it’s enough but not too excessive yet (but less is impossible for me), it works for me according my long experiences. Comfortable, easy, comes naturally, I really don’t have problems with my protein intake when I eat a moderate amount of food. And if I need much more, I add fattier things, I like them anyway. I don’t like most lean protein and even if I eat the ones I like, I automatically add more fat. It can be done consciously if someone needs it. I can enjoy leaner and fattier meat alike (even though my tastes draw me to pork chuck level) so if I know I need a lot of energy, I can focus on the fattier ones - and I grab some when my main protein source for the day happen to be lean as well.
But maybe I shouldn’t have written this, I do low-carb and experiment and analyze since ages and I know I think too much about these things, I am not simple enough… You just do keto, low carbs, nice protein sources, extra fat if your protein is too lean… Maybe things will fall into place without any extra effort from your part. My protein intake always was quite fine all by itself, I love protein and I love fat and my energy intake isn’t huge enough to reach some insane protein amount using my typical fatty protein sources.
Even not knowing much about you, 150 sounds fine to me. But some carnivores eat way, way, way more even being slim short women… 300 is okay for some and way too much for others, you don’t know until you try. But 300 sounds excessive, I would only do that if I just couldn’t eat less comfortably. I eat way more than my estimated protein need because it would be a horribly restrictive, stressful woe to eat only an adequate amount and it’s not high enough for me to do that (I couldn’t do that anyway, I don’t have the personality to force myself without a very good reason). But it’s easy to stay below 200g (most of the time) so I do that. But if I would be hungry with only 200g even if I try whatever is convenient to me and my body would feel just great above, I would go higher, my body is supposed to know its stuff better than me ;).

(Ivy) #43

There is no conclusion as to whether it is possible for me to get fat adapted?

Or is it sill possible for me, even though I had an accident cheat meal ?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #44

This question has actually been answered. To repeat, as a newbie you have delayed your progress by a day or two. Fat adaptation takes, generally speaking, six to eight weeks, so in the scheme of things, a day of accidental carb intake is not a problem.

(Ivy) #45

Ok. It was confusion about someone that had mentioned in a message to me. I’ll be more careful next time

(Jane) #46

Is that limit one meal? In a 12-hr period? 24 hrs?

(Jane) #47

The reason I ask is for me that would be a little over 2 lbs of ribeye steak (34 oz) or 163 g protein.

I certainly could not eat that much meat in one meal. Not even sure in a day, although I thought carnivores routinely ate 2 lbs of meat a day.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #48

I went back to one of Richard’s posts on the topic, and the figure appears to be 3.2 g/kg LBM/day. Given the range of individual variability, I’d say that if you smell of ammonia at any point, even an intake lower than that, you need to cut back on the protein. Ammonia toxicity is not fun and can be fatal.

That said, people’s nitrogen needs vary considerably, and it is possible that the efficiency of their uric acid pathway might vary considerably as well. Still, ammonia toxicity is not fun and can be fatal.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/how-protein-macro/22109/35

(Ivy) #49

Is that what you are saying I did with the cheat meal? And another cheat meal, if i ever did one?

(Ivy) #50

24 hours