Too much Fat (what happens in the body)

[Matthew_Leong]

When in Keto what happens in the body when the levels of fat are too much?

Is the over consumption of fat (over that used for the daily energy) deposited in the body in a 1 to 1 ratio?

[Shortstuff]

My understanding is that the body does not store fat as fat without the presence of carbs, and that too much dietary fat simply passes through (yes, diarrhea).

[jamestorie]

Does insulin have to be present to store fat as fat? I know I’ve heard the same thing, that excess fat passes through. I suppose that if you consume a meal with no carbohydrate, very little protein, and a lot of fat, this would happen?

[Matthew_Leong]

Found this excerpt on the “Ketogenic Die Resource” Site

Fats are digested in the small intestine, and then packaged into lipoproteins for various functions (ever heard of LDL and HDL? ) Excess fat calories often end up as fat droplets in fat cells. When fats are used as an energy source, they are broken down in cellular mitochondria through a process called beta-oxidation.

I guess if we look back into the hunter gather times if excess Fat consumption did not store then they would not have been able to go for long periods without continual eating.

Still, if anyone has any credible science on excess fat consumption I would please provide as I would like to read up on it.

Thanks for the reply’s thus far

[Matthew_Leong]

would be good but dont think that is the case. I have been on medication in the past that stops the body from absorbing Fats and let me tell you will know when it simply passes through

[richard]

Is the over consumption of fat (over that used for the daily energy) deposited in the body in a 1 to 1 ratio?

Yes - although you can eat more fat than your gut can absorb and that passes out in stool. But lets assume you eat short of that point. If you eat past satiety you will store the excess energy, that’s a good thing, not wasting it. You will likely also burn more energy, as when your body knows that energy is plentiful it will get around to doing all the things it has been denying itself while energy was constrained.

If you eat to satiety you are unlikely to eat beyond your daily energy needs. That’s why the ketogenic diet is an “Ad Libitum” diet. ie: 20g carbs or less, protein for maintenance, and fat for energy … to satiety.

[Matthew_Leong]

Hello Richard

Thank you for your reply it is very helpful. The reason for my question is not so I feel that I will be able to over eat fat, but just to clear up some questions that I did not have any answers (with the science to back up) for my brother who is new to Keto (1 week in and loving it!).

I have been a listener to your podcast from almost the start and think that you guys are helping people to be more healthy is amazing.

[richard]

just to clear up some questions that I did not have any answers (with the science to back up) for my brother who is new to Keto (1 week in and loving it!).

No worries. And good luck to your brother, that first week is a rollercoaster but eventually everything just locks into place and 3 years now and I can’t imagine going back.

[ggv]

Why I Didn't Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day Of A High Fat Diet - Smash...

@Shortstuff has part of the answer in that the human body can not store fat without an insulin response to trigger fat storage.

In Sam Feltham’s experiment, he lost body fat while eating what should have been ~2X his daily caloric needs.
I myself lost bodyfat while eating 5000 to 6000 calories per day (present BMI of 21.5)
@Zimon eats a similar amount and has a BMI of 21.

Does some fat just pass thru? I don’t know. Maybe?

I think our idea of metabolism is a little wrong-headed perhaps. Clearly, metabolism is highly variable given the inputs.
Best guess, when we have all these extra fat calories available that canot be put into storage, our bodies probably turn up all the dials to 11 on every nonessential function. That variability might be a lot larger than popularly thought.

I’m noticing my body wants more food now that the weather is turning cold again here in Minnesota. Over the summer, I only was eating 0 to 2000 cals / day. Now, I’m heading back in the 5000 range again.

I think this would be a very interesting question to ask Dr. Fung about in an upcoming podcast.

[Zimon]

@ggv yes, I regularly consume 5000-6000 Calories a day, followed by usually fasting for at least 18-36 hours, though. The fasts occur because I simply am not hungry after those feasts. I keep my weight around +/- 3kg (roughly 6,5lbs) at a BMI of 21-22. However my weight fluctuations are high anyway, with up to 2kg gains and losses between days.

Bear in mind, that my eating is completely keto-friendly, usually amounting to 100g of protein, 30g of carbs and the rest of the calories coming from fat. Usual foods are cream, nuts, butter, cheese, eggs and sausage, all of which are high fat variants. Cheeses, eggs and sausages, I supplement with loads of butter or cook them in lard/ghee/olive oil as omelets to keep the keto ratio of roughly 3/1.

As for wasting/emitting fat: I have been noticing increased feelings of heat or coldness after my feasts. My metabolism is all over the place and I measure increased resting heart rates, 1.5 times that of my normal beats per minute.

The second thing is stool: Sorry for being unsavory but if I stay on the toilet longer, my stool “emits” fat to the surrounding water. My conclusion is that all the fat (up to 700g on a binge day) cannot be absorbed by the body. It could be however - if you are constipated, for instance - that the body resorbs/takes up/recycles more of the fat contained in the stool. This would make sense to me as the fast stays in your intestines longer. I noticed that when I “can’t go” after a feast, my fasts do not result in much weight loss after. To me, this hints at my body taking up more of the fat still in in my intestinal system.

[ggv]

Just listened to this presentation from Dr. Bikman.
He’s saying much of the extra fat is cut up into ketones then wasted / expelled via breath and urine.

[Zimon]

I also listened to Bikman. I get what he’s saying, though I find the generality of his statements unconvincing. As we get more adapted, the body becomes more efficient at producing ketones, a lot of people see levels of blood/urine/breath ketones decrease What happens if I continue to consume too much fat in this situation? It can’t be all converted into ketones, because all three ketone bodies are lowered. Is it simply passed through and excreted via the stool instead? As stated above, this seems to be happening to me…

On the other hand, I have not observed declining ketone bodies so far. I measure blood, urine and breath. So far the only influencing factors are calories, macros and activity level. Perhaps my body is, thus, not seeing the need to become more efficient at generating and using ketones, because I keep my intake of dietary fat really high.

[ggv]

Hi Zimon!

You raise an interesting possibility…that the fat isn’t being digested at all.

I suppose our assumption that the energy (food) eaten is actually digested may be faulty.

Why would the body bother expending the energy and resources on digesting fat when it simply didn’t need it and would only have to go through a discard process in the breath and urine?

If so, does that mean there is some sort of feed-back mechanism that regulates bile enzymes?

What I find very interesting on Bikman’s waste idea is it could allow for body fat loss while not in a caloric deficit.

[Zimon]

Precisely! That is the whole faulty presumption of the dreaded Calorie: it just measures the POTENTIAL energy, not how the body reacts to it or what it does with it. From my experience, Certain types of fats simply seemingly cannot be used efficiently for energy. For me personally, this is the case with butter: sometimes I horribly overeat on butter, but my weight won’t change even if the calories consumed tell me it should! However, olive oil, for instance, is absorbed by my body much better. An oily salad I will definitely recognize on the scale, if I really go overboard with the olive oil.

[joseph]

Just my two cents. We don’t get fat because we eat too much fat. According to an article I read before (i forgot where) there’s a book called The Fat Switch. It stated there that in hunter gatherer times fat was created because of sugar or carbohydrate consumption specifically fructose from natural fruit. We became especially effective on that because of a mutation due to a change in the environment (global cooling). So during hunter gatherer times we became effective on getting fat not by eating fat. In my personal experience, eating too much fat makes my stool oily so excess fat it seems, is simply passed out.

[atomicspacebunny]

TOO MUCH FAT? You exceed your carb intake limit! (if you can exceed 80% fat intake which would be quite high! The other 20% has to be protein and veggies)

Everybody is different so coming up with a magic number for grams of fat is variable!

More than 3 or 4 oz. of protein can cause gluconeogenesis!

[Capnbob]

Can’t remember his name but the Keto personal trainer on 2000 calories a day who overfed an extra 2000 calories a day of pure fat for 21 days lost a pound in weight and gained a pound of LBM without blood work getting worse.
This certainly suggested that when fat adapted, your body is likely to process fat correctly - in other words to use what it needs and excrete the rest. Ironically the opposite of carbs which we are desperate to store any excess as body fat!

[Dan_Dan]

Jason Wittrock

[Capnbob]

Thanks. That’s the guy.