The 'Calories don't matter, macros do' Trifecta!

(Rob) #1

I’ve seen a couple of these posted already around the site but I really believe that to truly see the brilliance and argue the toss about various ‘diets’ you need to see the full 3 (4 really) experiments together.

This one shows that overfeeding on a keto basis adds negligible body fat and doesn’t damage your blood lipid tests. Note that this kept the macro % the same so he was eating much more carb and protein in grams than a normal keto plan would suggest

This was using low fat and inevitably high carb processed ‘diet food’ to achieve the same calorific overfeeding as the keto experiment. Guess what… he got fat and sick.
The half-an-experiment related to this was he rehab’d out of this by going back to keto at a maintenance calorie level (for him 3500Kcal) and he undid 80% of the damage in just 3 weeks even though his calories should (by the BS CICO theory) have just kept him level in weight.

The last one is probably not a surprise to many of us here but would be for many, especially the vegans. He tried to eat the same overfeeding calorie level in vegan foods but due to the high fiber levels, the effective calories were lower. He got fatter (not as much as HC-junk) but more interestingly he still got sicker in his blood panels even as a vegan. Given that he was not overfeeding by as much as the HC n=1 the decline per calorie of overfeeding is quite close to the junk diet.

I was already impressed by the Jason Wittrock overfeeding which kept carbs to 20g and just added 2000Kcal of fat per day but he didn’t/couldn’t reveal his blood work. Sam did and to me, it is the best example to demonstrate how what kind of calorie matters so much more than how many. This will become part of my induction pack for people I bring to keto.

PS Note the comments on the posts - many are thanking Sam for doing it, but some basically call him a liar… if that’s the best the haters can do, we’ve got this won already! :grin:

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(Rob) #2

and there are people that think the Earth is flat too! Haters are gonna hate.

Good work on bringing these three together.

(Ken) #3

The real saying should be: “Calories don’t matter, dietary hormonal secretion patterns do”. That’s the whole point of manipulating macros.

(Kameel Awdish) #4

Calories dont matter, Macros do… should you set your macros based on the goal weight? or base them on the current weight and lower macros as you go along?

(Rob) #5

this calculator that I use is based on body fat %…

The macros calculated have worked for me.

(She had one feck to give and that feck is gone.) #6

I’d like to see this comparison with all whole foods. I love Keto but it seems silly to compare an unprocessed Keto diet to a processed carb diet. I’m sure Keto would still come out on top.

(Ethan) #7

@jezza, This is the most annoying thing about anti-keto studies. They usually but the ketogenic group on a diet of highly processed protein and plant-based oil (e.g., canola) for fat. This combination is certainly ketogenic, but it isn’t healthy.

(Ken) #8

Both the high Carb and the Vegan patterns have a macro that is lipogenic. Weight gain was not as rapid with the Vegan pattern, but still resulted in adverse lipogenic sectetions which inevitably cause problems, but at a slower rate. All insulin based rather that glucagon based as in the fat based lipolytic pattern.

The main variable in a lipolytic, glucagon secreting macro is in protein consumption. Obviously widely debated and variable. The range being from the one g per kilo of LBM, up to 35% of total calories, or around one g per pound of LBM. The higher numbers being more favored by people who are very active or who train regularly, like bodybuilders and weight lifters. Fat levels are at least 60%, going much higher in what appears to be current keto dogma, designed to accomplish satiety, but unnecessary to achieve lipolysis. I’m not disputing or disagreeing with the higher fat levels, but I’d like to make the point that these are very adaptive processes, and when someone with metabolic derangement first becomes lipolytic, the focus is reversal of these adverse conditions caused by lipogenic adaptation. Eating lot’s of fat in the macro nutrient sense assists this. IMO, once these conditions alleviate and you’re considered well “fat adapted” you can reduce your fat percentage to encourage your body to burn more of your stored fat. Couple this with OMAD and it can become very effective. Reducing calories to insure you get hungry a couple of hours before your one meal makes it even more so.

Losing weight on a deficit/surplus?
(She had one feck to give and that feck is gone.) #9

Agreed. But let’s not make it the most annoying thing about pro keto studies and experiments.

I used to follow Eat To Live great results but sense of deprivation sent me over the edge after 6 months. I’ve been wondering if the results were from whole food and zero oils (I also did zero grain) more than from the restricted fat/vegan aspect. Fats were from nuts, seeds and avocado. Eat To Live does not require veganism, but animal protein is restricted. So no hater replies needed. I’m just curious what would happen if the fats were greatly increased but I’m enjoying Keto too much to try :joy:. Rib eye is my life!

(Rob) #10

Yes, definitely but it isn’t as snappy :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Rob) #11

Isn’t that the point of the exercise? That is the nature of the ‘diets’ he was taking ad absurdum. Vegans generally don’t aim for low carb, and the processed ‘low fat’ diet food he is critiquing is what it is and most people think of it as healthy. While it is vaguely possible to formulate a low carb high fat vegan diet it is not what most people do or even could do. It would be a far more hypothetical experiment than what he did as would a ‘healthy’ processed food diet, especially at over-feeding levels. I don’t think we can knock these n=1’s for showing a fairly common set of realities.

(Rob) #12

The vegan diet was pretty whole food. The point of the high carb was to eat ‘low fat’ diet food to demonstrate the fallacy of that whole idea. One could look at it as trying to make keto look good (which it does) but it’s primarily taking a very common diet approach and critiquing it very well by the same approach the proved that fat didn’t make him fat (keto).
The nature of a CICO, low-fat diet is inevitably high carb or you end up with starvation which is already addressed very well in the 97% of dieters who regain their weight.

(She had one feck to give and that feck is gone.) #13

I gave up scrolling before I got to the vegan part :smile:. I’ll have another look at it.

I’m not knocking his n=1 experiment per say. I just think it would have been more meaningful with more equal parameters.

(shawna) #14

Thank you for this link… can someone answer me a few questions…?

It tells me I should eat 11798 calories… ummmm nope !

Is this just a conversion problem, kilo calorie vs calorie that we typically think of? Should it actually be 1798??

Fat grams also seem high at 1255g… is this right?

I’ve been doing lazy keto for a few months with success, but am ready to dial it down, but this seems off… Please advise.

(Dan Dan) #15

I think its broken :thinking: it says for me to consume 0 calories to maintain my current weight :rofl:

try here awesome site :smiley:

“May the Force (fat adaption) be with you”

IF/EF Keto WOE is Self-Discovery :wink:

Good luck and much success in your journey in IF/EF Keto WOE :grin:

(Steve) #16

Here’s your snappy t-shirt label: FCUK Calories!

You could have (FAT RULES!) in parentheses underneath. :slight_smile:

…Richard & Carl should add it to the 2KD T-shirt store. :smiley:

…I’ll take my royalties in bacon please! :wink:

(Jay AM) #17

Some day I’d love to arrange a full n=x study of people doing macro percentages and very high calorie with keto with as much health data as possible. Maybe even get a kickstarter to pay for the blood tests and dexa scans. The downside would be not having access to a metabolic ward and people claiming self reporting isn’t accurate (no matter how accurately the group adhered.) We could even eat the same (agreed on) menus to add to the control of the experiment. I think even if the wider world didn’t accept it, people looking into keto would enjoy it as would this forum.

(Jay AM) #18

Forget calories use ketones?

(Sarah Slancauskas) #19

Thanks for posting these links. They’ve really helped me get to grips with the ‘calories don’t matter’ issue.