This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson

(ianrobo) #133

well I thought I did but I went a bit lower carb for a bit and exactly went into Keto flu which surprised me … so not so sure … however after mega rides I do not care so much TBH …

(Karl) #134

You know, I’m glad you revived this thread as I’m new here and kind of stopped listening to Jimmy Moore (mostly because he always came off as a shameless salesman who didn’t really have an interest in keto as much as he had an interest in making money from promoting products). I think I may actually give Jimmy the benefit of the doubt now.

The things that struck me were the “unicorn” comments initially. I think in that podcast you had two very very different people with very different struggles - Jimmy being the worst case scenario, and Mark being the “unicorn” who never had to deal with those struggles. It was clear that Mark didn’t understand what Jimmy was dealing with, and instead just pitched calorie deficit as his potential fix. That’s when I kinda thought to myself, “Ohhhh, Mark. You blew it.”

If Jimmy is in fact practicing what he preaches, then I have a lot of respect for the man. He handled that back-and-forth with Mark with a great amount of tact when it seemed clear (at least to me) that Mark simply doesn’t understand the struggle of serious insulin resistance/carb sensitivity.

Glad you made me aware of this :slight_smile:

(What The Fast?!) #135

I do wonder though - is he just eating too many calories to lose? (Mainly I wonder that about myself.) Mark makes a good point - caloric restriction reduces metabolism if you are NOT fat adapted, but if you are, you’re body should be able to draw additional energy from your stored fat.

I haven’t been in the CICO camp for a long time…but considering that fasting/feasting hasn’t worked well for me, I wonder if I should just try fasting/eating rather than feasting in order to reduce overall caloric restriction.

(Karl) #136

I suppose it’s possible (i’m not gonna follow him around for a day… he’d probably sell me half a dozen bottles of ‘artisinal olive oil’ at $72/qt).

Even if you’re not a believer in Club CICO, I kinda have to believe there’s a limit to where your body’s going to put that surplus energy. No matter what way you eat, I think at some point that extra food has to wind up either out of your ass, or on it. Still, if every gram of carbohydrate is screwing with Jimmy like it seems, then he gets mad props from me for even staying in the game. Again, i’m not sure he really is, but i’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

For now, anyway.

(What The Fast?!) #137

Incidentally, I have chronic issues with it NOT coming out…hahahhaa.

And yes - I don’t mean to speak badly about the guy because, clearly, I don’t know him…but he’s ALWAYS hocking some product or other, I feel like 30% of the show is him selling something. That’s why I love the dudes - I never feel like the point of the show is to sell me something, it’s so really make a difference and inform people about keto.

(Rob) #138

That is the point… what does happen to it? The assumption that a calorie is a calorie or that excess above TDEE will eventually be deposited as fat are both proven wrong as a principle though they can be correct at a point in time depending on the current metabolic situation of an individual. We don’t understand enough to be programatic for each individual without specific n=1 testing but the issue of insulin resistance must be at least a driving force on the utilization of calories.

Remember, people with healthy flexible metabolisms who massively overfeed with fat do not gain weight so they must excrete and/or burn extra calories (turn up the metabolic wick) but don’t deposit it. The same person who does the same overfeeding with carbs gets sick and fat quickly. However, these mechanisms don’t seem to be well understood

(What The Fast?!) #139

People say this…but based on my bloodworm, I am metabolically very healthy - and I gain weight when I overeat fat. I’m starting to think it differs a lot more person-to-person than we think. Same with fasting - I’m always hungry during a fast, even though I have excess body fat and low fasting insulin. I don’t think the rules apply to everyone - though I do believe they apply to MOST.

(Rob) #140

Fair points all. So much is dependent on the individual… I think it is also clear that there is something different about you from these “norms” since you have good markers, excess body fat, work incredibly hard on both the CI and CO sides of things and have thrown so many strategies of macros, specific foods etc. at your problems. I cannot even comprehend how frustrating it must be (except perhaps when I was CICO’ing with no effect :grin:)

Or are you the norm and these guys the freaks? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

It might be interesting to co-opt willing forum members to test out the normalcy of certain specific nutritional theories like Dave Feldman does with cholesterol responses. It would need to be driven by people who understand the rules of a semi-clinical trial, of course.

(What The Fast?!) #141

At this point, I’m going to try combining somewhat restricted fat calories with extended fasting and see how it goes.

(Rob) #142

Good luck. I know many people follow your experimentation with baited breath which shows you are not alone…

(What The Fast?!) #143

This.

I will say, when I started keto I assumed I had some metabolic derangement and insulin resistance, but if nothing else, I’ve learned that I don’t - and I wouldn’t have known that otherwise.

#144

Have you seen much of Ted Naiman’s work? He suggests a more protein heavy approach when you have fat to lose and only when you hit your goal weight would you shift to a more traditional ketogenic diet.

Out of the 3 macronutrients he told me that fat is the least satiating, behind protein and then carbs. In a nutshell if you have fat to lose eating a bunch of added fats is a problem. I’ll be giving this a try to see what happens. In a way I think the success Carl is having with his new plateau-busting approach could be related.

#145

Have you checked out Impulsive Keto (podcast and webpage)? If I’m recalling correctly, they support LCHF, moderate protein and IF, but discourage BPC/ adding tons of extra fat/ keto treats and endorse fasting only up to 36 (maybe 48 hours?) max. Seems to make sense if the “traditional keto” is not working for you. Everyone’s version of keto is different. Best wishes on your journey!

#146

No matter how hard I search there always seems to be another solid keto podcast I’ve never heard of, good lookin out.

#147

Here is the way I look at it. He has devoted his time and energy to promoting LCHF. Most other people do this as a hobby and have day jobs or do this as an adjunct to building their health care practices. I love Dr. Fung but I understand there is a huge backlog to see him professionally. Plus there would be no IDM program without the blog and videos.

I have been listening to his LLVLC backlog in the car. He has people on that I have never heard of but I am incredibly happy to hear from them. For example my dog was recently diagnosed with something. While her prognosis is uncertain, a day or two before she became ill I happened to have listened to Jimmy interview someone who talked about all the crap they put in pet foods. I immediately switched her to keto after we left the vet. While I have no idea what will happen tomorrow or next week or year, right now she is doing much better although she is also on conventional medicine.

Yesterday I listened to an interview with Cate Shanahan that I liked much better than her book which I started reading but put aside. There is a cost to this. He is a writer and speaker by trade, he has to support himself somehow. On an iphone you can easily fast forward through the commercials so I really do not mind them. I much prefer this to the DietDoctor membership model. While I realize $10 a month is not crazy and I am sure it is a great program, I only get to their site once or twice a month. Chris Masterjohn does the same commercials but no one seems to take that as a problem

@KetoLikeaLady given the amount of exercise you do, are you sure you are eating enough? I know you have tried everything but riding 100 miles a week is quite a bit (used to ride 30-40 on hills both days on the weekend and 10 - 20 into a headwind during the week, many years ago so I know). Curious, what speed and terrain do you do? I did find the faster I went the more I could eat or the faster I would lose weight (either on SAD or moderate carbs and moderate fat, protein whatever I felt like). Not sure this is helpful but hoping it will help somewhat

(What The Fast?!) #148

Yeah, I think he’s just not my cup of tea, and that’s okay. I’m not into his style or the jokes he makes. He also made some comments on an episode recently that really irked me about men being more competitive than women. I listen to some of his stuff when he has good guests on, I just don’t love his style.

On the calories thing, yes I definitely eat enough (but I certainly appreciate the sentiment). I used to track religiously but have let that go for sanity’s sake. I actually think I just need to eat less overall. If I’m fat adapted, my body should be able to go and get those extra cals from stored fat.

Right now I’m not riding as much (it’s cold), but now that it’s starting to warm, I’ll be ramping up the rides. I do a bit of climbing (there is not much flat land available here). A typical Saturday ride of about 32 miles has about 1600 feet of climbing.

#149

Wow, that is quite a bit. where I live we have hills but not mountains! So you might go up at a 20 - 30 degree angle (I am terrible at math so guessing) for about .25 miles but then have a really nice downhill a few minutes later. Natural HIIT

(What The Fast?!) #150

Yeah I live near Red Rock in Las Vegas. Plus WIND!!
I just looked and it looks like my averages are lower than I thought. More like 50-70 miles a week, with some outliers around 85-100.

(Angelo Carrion) #151

One takeaway Sisson was stating to Jimmy is regarding exercise also and activity. It’s the one thing Jimmy does least and Mark knows if Jimmy exercises more he might do much better overall.

(Cathy) #152

Mark thinks he knows. I know that J.M. has done a ton of exercise in efforts to reduce his bulk.

I think there is a type of fat that is resistant to loss - no matter. It seems to me that it is part of the whole metabolic ‘disorder’ pathway and the longer a person has had that fat on their body, it seems that it becomes permanent. We all want to believe we have the answers but it just isn’t so.