15g carbs too few?

(Allie) #2

20g net is the general guide as it’s whats needed to get most people into ketosis, but we all have different tolerances. It’s seen as an upper limit, not a definite target you have to hit.

(Lonnie Hedley) #3

No such thing as necessary carbs, so 0 is fine. The idea behind 20g net or less is that’s the best amount to stay below to guarantee your body will get into ketosis.

(Karen) #4

It’s an average like 98.6* temp. You may need fewer of May tolerate more.

K

#5

That is incorrect. It’s entirely possible to eat zero carbs and not be in ketosis. In fact, someone with a deranged metabolism can eat nothing for a couple of days and not be in ketosis. At the other extreme, some metabolically flexible people can eat 100g of carbs and be in ketosis. It truly a case of YMMV.

#6

zero is the most correct amount, but its hard to achieve.

(Lonnie Hedley) #7

That’s why I said [quote=“hedleylo, post:3, topic:44205”]
The idea behind 20g net or less
[/quote].

Meaning this is what most people think and advise. Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation.

#8

Correct for what? Not necessary at all.

#9

What I was trying to say is that 20g is an absolutely arbitrary number. Picked out of thin air and repeated ad infinitum. That doesn’t make it correct. I don’t think anyone has conducted a study that indicated 20 is more efficacious than 30. Or 40.

I have a bias against guessing about anything that can easily be determined by testing. I think people would have better results, less frustration, and better long term compliance if they determine their personal carb threshold and then eat within it.

(Lonnie Hedley) #10

I don’t disagree that’s its arbitrary, but a good guideline for 99% of beginners to give them the best guarantee of getting into ketosis. Sure, some people can maintain ketosis at 30, 40, maybe 100g of carbs a day. But the OP is obviously at the beginning of their journey. It makes no sense to say “both 15 or 20g are wrong, just figure it out yourself” which is basically what you’re saying. By telling a beginner to do their own testing to figure it out is telling them to guess when following the 20g net or less is the general guideline to get into ketosis for most (maybe not all).

We apparently have different points of view when trying to help beginners. My idea is to tell them to start EXTREMELY simple. 20g net or less carbs. Use a calculator to get a protein goal. Eat lots of fat until full. Don’t worry about counting calories at the beginning. Your comment on the other hand in my opinion only helps to confound the confusion of the OP. Again, for the sake of the OP, your comment added nothing to the conversation and thank you for that.

(Allie) #11

I’m with you on keeping things simple for beginners, they have so much of a big change to make without over complicating things unnecessarily.

(Lonnie Hedley) #12

I hate when a newbie asks a question and the response is “welcome to math class 0.8 g/lb of lean body mass divided by pi and cross referenced by the rotation of the sun in retrograde”. If I hadn’t done my own research and instead started asking questions and was given some of the responses I’ve seen I would never have continued on this way of eating. Why people think adding complications is helpful is beyond me. “I’m not losing weight”. ‘Well, then you need to fast for 3-5 days’. What? I lost 50lbs without doing any fasting. It can be a helpful tool, but not a necessity OR an absolute cure.

Sorry for the rant, but dang people keep it simple. Stop trying to complicate things when someone is trying to find their way in the beginning.

(Carole Sundeen) #13

Thank you. That is the way I feel right now, as a newbie. I’ve been doing this for one week and lost 2.8 pounds. I know this was water weight, but in reading responses that is OK. I’m disappointed but will keep on plugging along. My biggest problem with just only counting carbs is Dad once I found out I could plug the foods and I discovered I was eating 2000 cal a day. And even though we aren’t supposed to count calories that is way too much for me. After doing that for a couple of days I revised it to balance between carb fat and calories. Because no matter what anybody says it’s calories in calories out. Apparently my body is stubborn and has not begun to burn the fat yet. Hoping for better this next week.

#14

This is exactly my point. Keeping it simple by not counting calories, weighing food, calculating macros, etc. I just eat and test. When I began, my meals where guided by BG, I wanted it under 120. I tested 2 hours after eating. If it was high, I made adjustments at the next meal.

Chris Kresser did a better job of explaining than I can.
https://chriskresser.com/how-to-prevent-diabetes-and-heart-disease-for-16/

Eventually I transitioned to fasting because it was even simpler, easier and more effective.

(Lonnie Hedley) #15

Are you legitimately trying to say buying a glucose/ketone monitor and testing your blood everyday is more simple than just keeping carbs below 20g net which is WIDELY regarded as a near guarantee to get into ketosis?

Maybe my problem is I am nor never have been metabolically deranged, so all I’ve had to do to maintain the loss of a couple lbs has been to keep my carbs below 20g net. However, just like you I EVENTUALLY started doing IF, I track everything I eat, I cut out vegetables and eat only animal products. This is easy FOR ME, but I’d never suggest this for a beginner.

(Jay AM) #16

Really? Why are you eating keto then exactly? You could just restrict your calories and lose weight right? Or, has that not been working? CICO is not effective for a reason and yes, restricting calories especially with keto will stall your weight loss. We have some odd idea that we can somehow magically calculate exactly what we burn and consume and then control that. Well, we don’t. Our body doesn’t know what a calorie is, deficits down regulate BMR, what we think we know about calories is based on the body being a closed system (like a bomb calorimeter) which it isn’t. The body can adjust to not enough calories by losing less essential tasks and then hold on to what it does have in case calories never get back where they are supposed to. We actually see a lot of newbies stall for exactly this reason. This is why “eat more, move less,” the same advice fat people have been given for decades doesn’t work. Or, do you think they are fat because they ignore the advice? My first week on keto I was eating 3000 calories or more a day and lost weight initially (likely water), second and third weeks were around 900 because I wasn’t hungry. I average about 1800-2200 now based on hunger signals. My body determines what it wants. I do have some days where it goes over 4000 and some days where I might eat 100. It’s usually consistent but, I just work with my satiety signals. These signals are often damaged in people who have restricted calories for a while but, mine came in quickly. Mostly because I stopped believing conventional wisdom years ago when trying out paleo.

On the same note, everyone also says ketoers are going to die of high cholesterol and heart disease for eating so much fat (another debunked failing from the useless conventional nutrition world). If not fat then we’ll definitely get cancer and every disease under the sun for daring to eat outside of the bounds of conventional wisdom. The same convention that put most of us where we are now.

I’m going to leave my general recommendations below as I usually do for new ketoers so that they can start off on the right path along with some links about calories.

We have a few sayings here, “keep calm, keto on” and “trust the process.” Keto isn’t a quick weight loss diet. It’s a health gaining way of eating with fat loss as a side effect. If the scale is an unhealthy obsession, put it away for a couple of months or give it to a neighbor you don’t like.

There are two phases to ketosis and a ketogenic lifestyle.

Nutritional ketosis is phase one. Your body begins to produce and uptake some ketones while dumping the rest. It will still search for glucose to use as fuel. In this phase it’s not an efficient process. It has to work actively to get rid of stored glycogen, clean up excess blood sugar, and turn on the ability to use ketones.

Fat adaptation is phase two. Your body is efficiently producing ketones from intake and stored body fat and is also using them efficiently for energy. It takes around 6-8 weeks of strict keto to achieve for many but not all.

The basic “rules” I go by and many others can agree with especially for beginners are:

*20g net carbs max (you might tolerate more but, starting out, 20g net carbs or less will get you into ketosis.)

*Moderate protein (1g-1.5g per kg of lean bodyweight is a good goal based on the 2 Dudes recommendations.)

*Fat to satiety (add fat to every meal and, if you are hungry, eat more fat. Don’t be afraid of fat. It is energy.)

*Do not restrict calories

*Do not exercise excessively

*Drink plenty of water

*Get plenty of sodium and other electrolytes (search for ketoaide here in the forums)

(Jay AM) #17

It’s not an arbitrary number picked out of thin air. While probably not the first to recommend it, Drs. Volek and Phinney were trying to find the best low carb number to get the most people into ketosis successfully. That’s why 20g of carbs gets repeated so often. A lot of recommendations were and still are based on their work and books.

(Leslie) #18

Hi and welcome to the forum.
I want to be as helpful as possible and am trying to decide where the best place would be to start.
I re-read this post several times and am a little confused. Why do you think 2000 calories is too many?
If you are keeping your carbs to only those that are incidental, such as those found in leafy greens and dairy, less than 5% of those total calories, your protein to 15% of those calories and the remaining 80% of those calories are fats from animal sources, avocados, nuts, seeds, and coconut oils, then you will be successful. Caloric deprivation does not work.

I included Dr. Fung’s presentation on calories because it’s brilliant. If it’s not applicable because, again, I was confused by your post, then I apologize.

Keep coming back, we’re here to help

I hope you find this helpful
Keep calm and keto on

#19

Yes.
It takes less than 15 seconds to measure BG & BK. It takes way more effort to put each portion of meat or vegetables on a food scale, measure the amount of oil added, etc. Or to type all the ingredients of a recipe into MyFitnessPal.

Furthermore, over time I learn specifically how my body responds to various foods.* My goal isn’t too eat as few carbs as possible, my goal is to be in ketosis. In fact, I want as much variety in foods as my body can tolerate.

As I said before, consuming less than 20g of carb doesn’t guarantee ketosis. Eating a ribeye, which has zero carbs, may be too much protein for some people to achieve ketosis.

Lastly, the only way to know for sure that someone is a state of ketosis is to measure.

'* A body’s response to food isn’t set. As a result of my efforts over the past 9 months, my insulin sensitivity has improved (as measured by fasting BG levels and postprandial response).

In my opinion, tracking BG is not only simpler, it’s more informative.

(Lonnie Hedley) #20

We’ll have to agree to disagree. In the last two years I’ve never measured anything but can guarantee I’m in ketosis. At 6ft and 138.4 lbs I’m obviously doing something right to maintain sub 140 lbs for over a year. I weigh food and track everything because personally I crave that kind of structure. I’ve eliminated tons from my diet so I know how everything I eat affects me without needing to see a number on a meter. I’m relying on knowing my body while you’re relying on a number on a meter. To each their own.

Everyone is different, but similar enough that keeping below 20g net of carbs is as close as you can get to guarantee getting into ketosis.

(Fernando Urias) #21

15g carbs are not too few. 20g is the most heard guideline but it is meant to be an upper limit. 20g is the amount specified in the Atkins Induction Diet. It is an amount low enough to induce ketosis in most people in about 3 days. It allows room to have several cups of low carbohydrate vegetables to have lettuce salads and low carbohydrate vegetable side dishes, like broccoli.