Hormone Mediated Lipolysis - New Findings

[Sunder]

Just read this in Daily Mail.

Might explain why for some people, Keto is magic effortless weightloss, and for other people, weight shifts slowly…

The study differentiates between basal lipolysis, which is continual, and hormone-stimulated lipolysis, which is triggered in response to an increase in energy requirement.

The fat cells from the women who later became overweight showed high basal but low hormone-stimulated lipolysis, which gave a three-to-six times higher risk of weight gain and type 2 diabetes.

Obesity may be caused by people being less able to use fat for energy

[Alpha]

Interesting and logical

[mtncntrykid]

I’ve yet to form an opinion. There is some questionable issues such as -

“first discovered the correlation in a group of 54 women who gave tissue samples between 2001 and 2003, and who were followed up 13 years later.”

This is then followed up with-

“They then repeated the analysis on 28 other women who gave samples in 1998 and were followed up 10 years later, with the same results.”

How could this be a follow up test if the dates provided are before the first tests dates listed?

[Alpha]

After reading your post I went back and read the article again. I agree with your comment something does not add up.

maybe there is a typo.

[atomicspacebunny]

Original:

Inefficient fat metabolism a possible cause of overweight Published 2018-05-31 17:01. Updated 2018-05-31 17:01 “…What they discovered was that the ability of the fat cells to free fatty acids, a process called lipolysis, in the first tissue sample could be used to predict which women would have developed type 2 diabetes by the end of the study. …” “…Consequently, the researchers have developed an algorithm based on simple clinical and biochemical parameters from hundreds of individuals in order to obtain an indirect estimation of the quantity of fatty acids freed by the fat cells and thus predict weight gain. …”

The estrogen molecule likes to hold onto fat cells for dear life, for which dieting i.e. fat oxidation methods or IF/EF fasting are no match, women have more estrogen receptors than men, however that means nothing if sex hormones are unbalanced (in ratios 1:1) in either sex!

My take on this is that if estrogen, progesterone androgen and testosterone are unbalanced in ratio (amount/levels are irrelevant) especially due to exogenous sources (toxic environment and food sources) and synthesis of estrogens (bad estrogens) from agrochem et al. The weight will come right back and will make it harder to lose weight the next time around because of the ratio imbalances it creates each time damaging the metabolism (the ability to shrink or burn WAT fat cells)!

That is the real culprit that gets a back seat to the mystery?

Testosterone is similar if not identical to estrogen but with a loop back mirroring effect HO-to-OH enveloping its entire molecular structure like a halo (benzene ring).

Some footnotes below on my searches if anyone wants to dig deeper?

Footnotes:

[1] hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, sulfur (CHNOPS) Sulfur is contained in the amino acids cysteine and methionine. Phosphorus is contained in phospholipids, a class of lipids that are a major component of all cell membranes, as they can form lipid bilayers, which keep ions, proteins, and other molecules where they are needed for cell function, and prevent them from diffusing into areas where they should not be. Phosphate groups are also an essential component of the backbone of nucleic acids and are required to form ATP – the main molecule used as energy powering the cell in all living creatures. …More

[2] Dimethyl Sulfone (MSM): Top 5 Benefits & Uses

[3] Sulphur… Hey all, recently i was taking sulphur capsules for some other things and i’m loosing weight like crazy. Why is this? I heard sulphur blocks some sugars? …More …Re: Sulphur Research indicates that perhaps sulphur’s most important health role is in carbohydrate metabolism, which is significant for hypoglycemics and diabetics. Sulphur is a significant component of insulin, the protein hormone secreted by the pancreas that is essential to the metabolism of carbohydrates…so that is why you may be losing…Lisa …More

[4] Sulfur Deficiency A Possible Contributing Factor in Obesity, Heart Disease, Alzheimer’s and Chronic Fatigue - Stephanie Seneff, PhD

[5] The Importance of Organic Sulfur

[6] Could You Have a Sulfur Deficiency?

[7] CBS Mutation and Low Sulfur Diet [IMPORTANT PLEASE READ] “…As a clinician, I have learned that what is healthy for one individual can be poison for another. - Dr. Jockers…”

[8] How to Fix Your Progesterone to Estrogen Ratio For The Last Time - Dr. Houston Anderson

[9] Estrogen Dominance - Not Just a Woman’s Problem - Dr. Ike’s

[10] Yes! Men Can Be Estrogen Dominant

[11] Testosterone Estrogen Ratio

[12] MSM - Raymond Francis

[13] Why Cardio and Bootcamps Are Making You Fat

[14] Adipose Tissue as an Endocrine Organ

[15] Stress Hormones and Heart Disease: Increase Progesterone and decrease Cortisol “…There are several ways to increase progesterone, one of which is to decrease stress hormones such as cortisol, ACTH and CRH. However, we can also directly improve progesterone production. Progesterone is made from pregnenolone, the mother of all hormones, while pregnenolone is made from cholesterol. Cortisol is indirectly made from progesterone or more precisely from its metabolite, known as 17-OH progesterone.

17a-Hydroxyprogesterone

This makes progesterone an essential precursor to mineralocorticoids such as aldosterone and glucocorticoids such as cortisol. When you are exposed to stress, the body increases secretion of cortisol and adrenaline. When this happens, progesterone decreases since it is used to produce cortisol. This makes it important to control stress response, in order to increase progesterone levels. …”

[Keto6468]

The study is interesting. So glad they did it on women. We are really Struggling. The video is solidly CICO though.

K

[Keto6468]

Thanks bunny, read several of these. Although as a post menopausal woman, my estrogen should be low, and yet so hard to lose.

[mangoginger]

Hi everyone, including @atomicspacebunny

Interesting thread, thanks…

I am looking for a thread/group discussing Keto for menopausal women. Most advocates and videos are with younger men or women. So, will a change in hormone levels mean it’s harder to shift into keto, and it will take longer for your body to adapt to burning fats?

I was on a keto programme for about 3 weeks and urine strips showed i was in keto after just a couple of days I lost about 3 or 4 Lbs at the beginning then my weight didn’t change, but i do think I might have lost fat mass as trousers seemed to get easier to put on…

Then I took a weekend off and can’t get back into ketogenesis despite following a similar programme… Uh-oh

And, while I was on keto I stringently recorded everything I consumed (using cronometer) and one thing i noticed was that I consumed far fewer calories than I burned…

Now that I’m not in ketogenesis I’m wondering whether the hormone thing means my metabolism is slowed down so much that I won’t lose weight even when in keto unless I do some fat burning exercise?

And, does anyone know a forum which is geared towards people like me so I don’t think i’m wasting my time on a keto diet if it isn’t going to work for me (a high-fat low carb diet when not in keto is probably going to kill me!)

[Lauren_Lake]

The timing may be due to using tissue samples that had been in storage. It’s not unusual for labs to have lots of research samples stores frozen for a long time.

[mtncntrykid]

You might re-read the lines. They specifically state that these were the times when the samples were given.

[Lauren_Lake]

I just meant they may have repurposed samples from a previous study. It’s not unusual for subjects to consent to have additional research done on their samples. At my company we made new discoveries from tissue collected for a prior, unrelated, study.

[atomicspacebunny]

I really think this Doctor is correct?

Keto is going to bump estrogen levels up even if your post-menopausal (see that a lot on this forum) and your ovaries are intact (hysterectomy?) they will start working again (spotting), so that’s where the configuration ratio starts?

If there is a hysterectomy and no weight loss on keto then there may still need to be a hormonal configuration ratio?

Understanding Your Progesterone to Estrogen Ratio - Dr. Houston Anderson

If you are unfamiliar with what the Pg/E2 (progesterone to estrogen) ratio is, it is something many physicians use when a woman suffers from hormonal symptoms, yet their lab results appear to be within the “normal” range.

I won’t go into the exact calculations as of now, but essentially in both saliva and blood tests, you are aiming for a progesterone to estrogen ratio of 100-500. (To calculate your progesterone to estrogen ratio, take your progesterone and divide it by your estrogen which then provides your progesterone to estrogen ratio. Providers vary but I have observed many practitioners aiming at a progesterone to estrogen ratio greater than 200.)

When progesterone is low in relation to estrogen, then your ratio goes lower. This is what is termed estrogen dominance and is most common especially in women over the age of 40. This also suggests relative progesterone deficiency. (For more on estrogen dominance, read my article here.)

When progesterone is high in relation to estrogen then it is described as progesterone dominance. This also suggests a deficiency of estrogen relative to progesterone.

Symptoms of Progesterone Deficiency (aka Estrogen Dominance)

Mood changes
Anxiety
Nervousness
Irritability.
Depression
Migraines
Hot flashes
Low libido
Menstrual problems (short, long, heavy, irregular)
PMS
Menopause symptoms
Standard Natural Treatment For Optimal Progesterone to Estrogen Ratios

This is where I am going to part ways with many natural doctors or better stated semi-natural doctors. In 2018 the standard “go-to” treatment for estrogen dominance is hormone replacement therapy (HRT) using progesterone to increase progesterone while leaving estrogen the same and thus improving the Pg/E2 ratio. While not everyone is doing this, the vast majority are.

The standard treatment for Progesterone dominance is to use HRT to provide additional estrogen and thus fixing the ideal ratio (100-500).

(I also note that this is an oversimplified example but illustrates the point.)

The PROBLEM!

I personally have a problem with hormone replacement therapy and I think you should too. The problem is that nobody seems to be asking the deeper question of why these ratios are off in the first place! Why in 2018 do so many women need HRT when in even as recent as the year 2000 you were hard pressed to find a women on HRT?

I thought natural practitioners were supposed to be looking for the root cause?

What happened to the days when the physician would dig deep into their wisdom and knowledge base for answers rather than simply prescribing “natural” hormone replacement therapy? If you are missing your ovaries and or uterus, or have other extenuating circumstances then there may be a valid reason for hormone replacement, but otherwise the most natural way to balance your hormones permanently is to avoid adding hormones altogether.

In a subsequent article I will address all the negative side effects of HRT, but for now, know that the biggest problem in my opinion isn’t cancer risk, but rather that it forgets to dig into the WHY and look for a root cause, thus it makes it much like other prescription drugs that only address symptoms. (Yes, I realize that this is a highly controversial statement.)

How to Correct Your Ratio 95% of the time

I get the opportunity to work with a lot women in my practice. Most women don’t come in complaining of hormonal imbalance, yet most have an imbalance that appears during the course of treatment and what I find 95% of the time is that what shows up in the treatment process is high estrogen. The other 5% is low progesterone usually due to excessive stress.

So… if I was a female at home reading this article and guessing which was causing my symptoms regarding libido, hair growth, cramping, tenderness, mood swings, etc. I would guess it was high estrogen.

In fact I would go so far as to say that, even if you are a female that has blood or saliva labs from your doctor that suggest your estrogen is low or even “undetectable” I would still suggest that you are much more likely to have estrogen excess and/or estrogen dysregulation than a true progesterone deficiency.

This does not mean that you shouldn’t treat your progesterone to estrogen ratio, it just means that in my opinion, the best way to balance your Pg/E2 ratio is to lower estrogen almost every time. …More

[mtncntrykid]

I understand what your trying to suggest but the time frames still don’t really cater to that theory. “They then repeated” imply’s that the second test (even with previously collected samples?) was done after the conclusion of the first test?
Obviously we will not really ever know but the confusing description sparks question in my mind.

[Lesliemont]

I’m skeptical. I don’t like the way the statistical data and dates appear off and I also don’t like the complete ommison of dietary. Unless I missed something huge in my reading. What other factors did they not include?

@mangoginger I have absolute respect for the desperate tone of your post. I’m menopausal. I hear your anguish. That being said, three weeks is just not enough of a start for a person’s body to ‘understand’ what’s going on. Yeah, you managed to make ketones. Big whoop. Now your not managing to make ketones. Also, not so impressive. Look, low carb eating will convert your body fat eventually. Eating LCHF has many layers, at some point you excrete measurable levels of urine ketones. At others, not so much. Even if the urine sticks never show ketones, what matters is your health. Carbs causes insulin to be released and insulin causes inflammation and fat storage. That’s not healthy even for someone who makes tons of estrogen.
Start over. Focus on your non scale victories. Don’t measure ketones or step on the scale for a while and just learn to enjoy the WOE. Or, ignore all of that because it’s only what worked for me
I don’t know much about a lot but I do know that when it took decades for our bodies to add that extra weight, it might just take as long to rid ourselves of it and it’s not just about any one factor, it’s about a combination of factors. The one thing that is certain, from my research, is that insulin is the bugger. Keep the insulin levels down and eventually it will work.

[mangoginger]

Thanks Leslie for your encouragement. I’m trying again, with renewed determination. I do find it easy to stick to it

[4dml]

And, does anyone know a forum which is geared towards people like me so I don’t think i’m wasting my time on a keto diet if it isn’t going to work for me (a high-fat low carb diet when not in keto is probably going to kill me!)

It seems illogical that sex hormones would trump metabolic hormones (ie. insulin, leptin, glucagon) when it comes to weight loss/gain. I think the solution for most of us lies in focusing on how we can manipulate metabolic hormones.

I’m probably a few (not many) years away from menopause, so there’s certainly no “wind at my back” in terms of physiology. But that disadvantage is offset by the wisdom I’ve gained with age. I know what will and won’t work in my life. I know how to keep myself motivated. I may not be fast, but I stay the course.

In his latest interviews, Dr Fung has explicitly differentiated between the low carb hypothesis (Atkins camp) and the insulin hypothesis (Fung camp). The former focuses on WHAT to eat, the latter on WHEN to eat. Some folks may respond better to one or the other.

What works for me is a way of eating that is flexible. My life doesn’t revolve around diet. I’ve found my body is more responsive to how often/when I eat. This also better fits my lifestyle. I can eat whatever is served as the occasion dictates and use fasting as a tool to regulate my hormones and control weight. In my case, this means lots of extended fasts, and meals that are not necessarily LC.

I use a bunch of tools- smart scale, food scale, Fitbit, glucometer, ketone meter, numerous apps. I analyze the numbers in a spreadsheet. I keep a journal that (among other things) includes reporting pertinent details that effect this aspect of my life. All of this is of utility to me, but distilled down to the 80-20 rule, the glucometer has been the most useful tool. BG is the best available proxy for insulin. Keeping my BG low (under 70 mg/dL) for extended periods of time is reparative and is closely correlated to changes in weight shown by the scale.

Postmenopausal woman can (and do) lose significant amounts of weight. Its only a matter of figuring out via the trial-track-adjust-repeat method, what works for you specifically.

[Screenack]

Here’s a link to the original journal document:

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30311-5

Surprise, the Daily Mail, like any mainstream outlet, has no clue what they’re writing about.

However, you can read about the process of the study at the above link. There is some misalignment between what the DM writes, and what’s in the actual document.

[mangoginger]

Thanks for linking us to this. i’m always loathe to draw from DM!
But I’m not quite sure what it’s saying. Do you have a better idea?

[mangoginger]

Thanks so much @4dml. It’s always great to know more about the actual things that others are doing - trying out this, seeing what works for them. higlighting the importance of focusing on insulin is helpful too.

[N1coleS]

I agree 100% with on the WHY?!! What are your recommendations to understanding the why more?