This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson

(Jason Fletcher) #121

Well if he is eating to satiation when he is stressed then he will be eating a lot more. But i guess if tries not to then it will cause more stress and cortisol that will cause him to eat more creating more stress that will increase what he is consuming. It is not even not CICO or eating to just satiation his approach is loosing its logic.

(Arlene) #122

Just to clarify, I was not claiming exercise is the answer to perfect weight, in fact I am certain it is not. What I was saying is that I believe getting plenty of movement, all kinds of movement every day is one of the keys to achieving our best health. Too many of us are just too sedentary, and I don’t believe humans were meant to live that way.

(Crow T. Robot) #123

I think exercise can help you lose weight, but not because of “burning calories”. What you are doing is depleting your glycogen stores and thereby making yourself more insulin sensitive. You still want to increase mobility, flexibility and strength in order to improve your quality of life, though, and that’s where exercise is good for everyone.

#124

Actually, virtually no one - certainly no one on this thread - has the impression that exercise can compensate for a bad diet. Attia himself was on the way to diabetes while competing in endurance swimming. “A key component to optimal human health” was Arlene’s phrase.
Like sleep and stress, movement (not even exercise, but movement) is so fundamental to our physiology. It moves the lymph, which has a whole series of nice effects; it improves our mood (which in turn makes it easier to find and stick to an eating path that works for us); it improves our sleep and stress levels (with a whole nice series of downstream effects); it dramatically changes how we move and feel in our lives; it supports and in some cases can dramatically improve hormonal health.

#125

I think that the reason exercise comes up in this case or similar cases (why folks even mention it) is because it’s an important piece of the puzzle, and if someone is addressing insulin resistance with his food and fasting (and unfortunately seems to have re-gained a substantial amount of weight while doing that) then other things - stress management, sleep, exercise - are a natural next place to look. Since exercise can help regulate appetite and mood, it’s an important tool (not to cause weight loss directly, but to trigger other things that might, to create a state of balance where the body settles at a healthier weight).

#126

I do not get the sense Dr. Fung thinks it is a key component, while he does acknowledge that exercise has a place, at the end of the day people will move regardless to do what they need to do unless they are completely bedridden.

Total physical activity, measured with accelerometers, showed that there is no difference in total activity over the week between the two groups. Why? The PhysEd group compensated by doing less at home. The non-PhysEd group compensated by doing more when they got home. In the end, it was a wash.

In addition, the benefit of exercise has a natural upper limit. You cannot make up for dietary indiscretions by increasing exercise. You can’t outrun a poor diet. Furthermore, more exercise is not always better. Exercise represents a stress on the body. Small amounts are beneficial, but excessive amounts are detrimental.17

Exercise, is simply not all that effective in the treatment of obesity—and the implications are enormous. Vast sums of money are spent to promote physical education in school, the Let’s Move initiative, improved access to sports facilities, and improved playgrounds for children—all based on the flawed notion that exercise is instrumental in the fight against obesity

https://idmprogram.com/exercise-is-not-total-energy-expenditure/

He has a whole series on exercise and why it is not necessary to control weight.

As for Attia, that was his point exactly, he and his patient gained weight even while performing a tremendous amount of physical activity. So clearly physical activity is not the answer. He acknowledges that now he bikes because he loves it even though he knows it could be harming him to do it on an endurance level.

Exercise is a stress on the body if it is done past a moderate point. There is an increased risk of A Fib on the right side of the heart with endurance athletes and there is no way to tell ahead of time if this applies to you. Think about it, half the people in that A Fib commercial on TV were star athletes

#127

I think the top of Fung’s blog post says it all: we shouldn’t look to exercise to control weight. The assumption that exercise can somehow make up for or offset poor diet is one of the many screwy ideas that come from CICO mentality, and he’s making a valiant effort to counter it. There’s no disagreement on this point; in fact it looks to me like there’s actually unanimous agreement about that on this thread.

But movement is central to health. I don’t know anyone vibrantly healthy over the age of 25 (and very few under) who are who aren’t active in some way - either amateur cyclists, avid yoga folks, weight lifters, hikers, or just out and about with plenty of walking and fresh air.

I love @Brenda’s posts about her weightlifting gains. Her incredible pride in her strength is so awesome. It brings tears to my eyes and I wish more young women in particular could see her posts. Exercise - in whatever form - isn’t about crop tops and vanity selfies; it’s about owning our bodies and enjoying their movement and vitality. Sedentary living is so completely new for humans, but unfortunately it’s enough of a norm now that unless we have active jobs, we need to go out of our way to move our bodies.

Fortunately folks often find themselves craving more activity more as keto improves their health, but it can go the other way too (it does for me): greater activity can start a lovely cycle of better mood and sleep and eating habits.

(David) #128

Yes, and musculoskeletal strength is so important as we age. Life threatening injuries don’t often come from sporting activities in later life but from falls, slips and trips. These are made more likely if we have lost our core strength through sedentary lives in our young and middle years. This isn’t exercise for vanity or calorie burning, simply retaining the ability to safely navigate the world.

(Cathrine Helle) #129

This! According to health authorities and dietary guidelines throughout the western hemisphere is this how we all work. Except we don’t. At least not the majority of us. The naturally lean people have a perfectly balanced appetite and do not feel the need to sacrifice anything dietary wise. And they don’t really have to, alt least not from a body weight perspective. Yet they are somehow percieved as healthier, more responsible people, as they have not “let themselves go” into gluttony. Naturally lean people can make just as poor dietary decisions as over weight people, it just doesn’t affect their weight. I wonder if I will ever come to terms with the unfairness of this misconception in society :roll_eyes:

(Cathy) #130

My mail carrier (for the past couple of years) is overweight/obese as well.

(David) #131

Kent Altena, a guy who lost a lot of weight on a combined exercise and Atkins diet has started doing YouTube videos again. Jimmy Moore used to draw parallels between the two of them and their journeys as both lost a lot of extra weight through low carb and then put a lot back on again. It will be interesting to see if Kent can replicate his success in a second round of dietary management.

(What The Fast?!) #132

Reviving an old thread today. I just listed to the last 20 minutes of the episode and it made a lot of sense to me. As someone without T2D or insulin resistance, I have MAJORLY struggled to lose weight with keto, even with aggressive fasting. I wonder if I just cut down my caloric intake, if I could lose weight and maintain my metabolic rate (due to very low fasting insulin and my body drawing from fat when needed). Considering the whole “eat to satiety” thing hasn’t worked, it may be better for me to just attempt eating less overall.

I, like Mark, have an easy time getting back into ketosis when I combine intermittent fasting with workouts. If I don’t work out, I have to do extended fasting to get into deeper ketosis, but I find that as long as I’m emptying my glycogen stores by working out, I can stay in ketosis without stressing about number of carbs eaten.

At the very least…it’s a new experiment to try.

@ianrobo do you find the same, since you cycle so much?

(ianrobo) #133

well I thought I did but I went a bit lower carb for a bit and exactly went into Keto flu which surprised me … so not so sure … however after mega rides I do not care so much TBH …

(Karl) #134

You know, I’m glad you revived this thread as I’m new here and kind of stopped listening to Jimmy Moore (mostly because he always came off as a shameless salesman who didn’t really have an interest in keto as much as he had an interest in making money from promoting products). I think I may actually give Jimmy the benefit of the doubt now.

The things that struck me were the “unicorn” comments initially. I think in that podcast you had two very very different people with very different struggles - Jimmy being the worst case scenario, and Mark being the “unicorn” who never had to deal with those struggles. It was clear that Mark didn’t understand what Jimmy was dealing with, and instead just pitched calorie deficit as his potential fix. That’s when I kinda thought to myself, “Ohhhh, Mark. You blew it.”

If Jimmy is in fact practicing what he preaches, then I have a lot of respect for the man. He handled that back-and-forth with Mark with a great amount of tact when it seemed clear (at least to me) that Mark simply doesn’t understand the struggle of serious insulin resistance/carb sensitivity.

Glad you made me aware of this :slight_smile:

(What The Fast?!) #135

I do wonder though - is he just eating too many calories to lose? (Mainly I wonder that about myself.) Mark makes a good point - caloric restriction reduces metabolism if you are NOT fat adapted, but if you are, you’re body should be able to draw additional energy from your stored fat.

I haven’t been in the CICO camp for a long time…but considering that fasting/feasting hasn’t worked well for me, I wonder if I should just try fasting/eating rather than feasting in order to reduce overall caloric restriction.

(Karl) #136

I suppose it’s possible (i’m not gonna follow him around for a day… he’d probably sell me half a dozen bottles of ‘artisinal olive oil’ at $72/qt).

Even if you’re not a believer in Club CICO, I kinda have to believe there’s a limit to where your body’s going to put that surplus energy. No matter what way you eat, I think at some point that extra food has to wind up either out of your ass, or on it. Still, if every gram of carbohydrate is screwing with Jimmy like it seems, then he gets mad props from me for even staying in the game. Again, i’m not sure he really is, but i’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

For now, anyway.

(What The Fast?!) #137

Incidentally, I have chronic issues with it NOT coming out…hahahhaa.

And yes - I don’t mean to speak badly about the guy because, clearly, I don’t know him…but he’s ALWAYS hocking some product or other, I feel like 30% of the show is him selling something. That’s why I love the dudes - I never feel like the point of the show is to sell me something, it’s so really make a difference and inform people about keto.

(Rob) #138

That is the point… what does happen to it? The assumption that a calorie is a calorie or that excess above TDEE will eventually be deposited as fat are both proven wrong as a principle though they can be correct at a point in time depending on the current metabolic situation of an individual. We don’t understand enough to be programatic for each individual without specific n=1 testing but the issue of insulin resistance must be at least a driving force on the utilization of calories.

Remember, people with healthy flexible metabolisms who massively overfeed with fat do not gain weight so they must excrete and/or burn extra calories (turn up the metabolic wick) but don’t deposit it. The same person who does the same overfeeding with carbs gets sick and fat quickly. However, these mechanisms don’t seem to be well understood

(What The Fast?!) #139

People say this…but based on my bloodworm, I am metabolically very healthy - and I gain weight when I overeat fat. I’m starting to think it differs a lot more person-to-person than we think. Same with fasting - I’m always hungry during a fast, even though I have excess body fat and low fasting insulin. I don’t think the rules apply to everyone - though I do believe they apply to MOST.

(Rob) #140

Fair points all. So much is dependent on the individual… I think it is also clear that there is something different about you from these “norms” since you have good markers, excess body fat, work incredibly hard on both the CI and CO sides of things and have thrown so many strategies of macros, specific foods etc. at your problems. I cannot even comprehend how frustrating it must be (except perhaps when I was CICO’ing with no effect :grin:)

Or are you the norm and these guys the freaks? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

It might be interesting to co-opt willing forum members to test out the normalcy of certain specific nutritional theories like Dave Feldman does with cholesterol responses. It would need to be driven by people who understand the rules of a semi-clinical trial, of course.