This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson


(ianrobo) #101

He feels that others might do well to move to somewhat higher carbs (but still low carb compared to most ways of eating, and obviously high-quality carbs) but keeping keto as a natural state to which you return often.

In other words carb cycling and this is a strong area of contention. Peter Defty calls it OFM but for example Brian Williamson is dead against it.

this is very individualistic of course, for myself I was able to go on holiday, eat far more carbs than normal (but not what I used to do) and when IU came back naturally slipped straight back in. Others with much higher insulin resistance would probably go through a much harder time (I suspect Jimmy is like this) and the re adaptation is so much worse for them.

I do have to say this is where exercise plays a large part. If exercise (as with Mark obviously) is a large part of your routine then you will be far more highly tuned and easier to go back in. I note Jimmy is starting to talk about the more exercise he has.

The maxim ‘you can not outrun a bad diet’ is still totally false but the new one should be that ‘exercise is a fantastic way of supplementing a Keto/LCHF lifestyle’.


(Jason Fletcher) #102

I just finished the book. Sesson even put Luis from ketogains full quote on his option on carb cycling and he is strongly against it plus he quoted dr Jacob Wilson and his study that showed musle loss during this approach. So he did a good job with not hiding any of the pitfalls of using carbs this way. One thing I did not like was the idea of kind of going primal then Keto. He even has a test to take befor going Keto to make sure you are ready. This approach does not work well in my opinion. Just because I believe it is easyer to jump in and force your body to adapt. there may be cortisol and other stresses but for most this will last only 1 to 3 weeks. Going primal first I could just see individuals just having a harder time with blood sugar fluctuations then they would just trying to adapt to Keto. But over all the book covers a lot of approaches some I do and some I would not.


#103

I totally agree, and I think there’s a big problem with seeing exercise as calorie expenditure (even for those who don’t believe in CICO, I keep seeing the idea of exercise = using up energy in some form). Movement is so much more than a side note; it’s what our bodies expect, and it’s central to health, hormonal balance and mood.


(ianrobo) #104

Now that’s interesting as Peter Defty is a very strong advocate of carb cycling for professional athletes but that ius the difference between body building and endurance sports ? after all is Keto gains not a body building forum ?


(ianrobo) #105

and Madeline, humans were never meant to be sedentary and why we have two legs and upright.

We evolved to always be on the move and it is only the last 100 years we stopped forgetting this. We are not talking doing an hour of HIIT a day etc but walking a lot more etc Getting the HR up a bit etc and using the fat we eat to power this and get your metabolism speeded up so it needs more calories in a day.


#106

Yes - and also movement of many kinds really changes our structure so that the same weight looks and feels quite different. I’m curious what will happen if/as Jimmy Moore looks at exercise a bit more.


(ianrobo) #107

well he said he has, he is taking walks, using tyre pulls etc so he sees I think that his metabolism is far too low and it is exercise that can bring it up. I would love to know what his resting HR is


(Jason Fletcher) #108

If you look at the facts page the protocol for carb cycling is on there is just not advised to do. I think one thing people have to understand is that Sesson and Luis from ketogains are not dogmatic and look at the science and want to implement protocols based on what implementation will work best for the individual. One of the reason they do not suggest carb cycling is because a majority of people who follow ketogains are not pro body builders and most come from a place of eating addiction and a broken metabolisms. So even if there is a ability to possibly gain a 5% improvement from a carb cycling protocol it is not worth it. Since most will just jump into it and use it to justify binging on carbs. I myself see this all the time. I know there is a thought that if glucose is not cycled that your body will become unable to use them as well. I have not seen a study that has convinced me this is the case. I have implemented using dextro sugar 20 to 30 grams before heavy lifting. I try to take note of my performance and for me there is a small window within my reps that i see a improvement. It is in about the 6 to 11 rep range where that i feel this gives a improvement. For example say i was able to do 4 to 5 reps at 175. Well i would also only be able to do 4 to 5 reps at 145 as well. When i added carbs i would find that i would still only be able to do 175 up to 5 reps. But now i would be able to push 145 to 10 or 11 reps. Now i did notice when i am fresh i still would be able to push out 145 10 to 11 reps but only for about the first couple sets. This is not really a problem if i want to increase power because the 1-5 rep range works well for that and as long as i rest 4 min then i would be able to get another heavy set out. I believe the glucose is needed for that little window. Then again i would not suggest doing this with someone that is metabolically damaged as i once was. When you look at the ketogains 5x5 you will see that they suggest resting 3 to 4 min and since you are under 6 reps you will not need glucose. On another note Ketogains gets painted as a group of egocentric and vain bullies by some in other communities. I think the group can be intimidated to a lot of individuals that have been bullied by the body builder type. I do see some that do belittle others time to time for their lack of understanding of the principles of ketogains. The mods for the most part put them in their place.

I have said this before but i think we now are focusing so much on insulin’s roll on fat metabolism that we are neglecting to see the power of cellular energy metabolism and how this can influence insulin resistance and our BMR. Since there are not many ways to measure what is happening withing the cell we don’t focus on it. I believe that the notion that exercise is a bad way to loose weight has lead a lot of people down the wrong path because they are more likely not to do it. Since cellular energy metabolism is completely transformed with exercise it is the other half of the equation that has to be addressed.


(Arlene) #109

I believe movement, long periods of standing, walking, etc., and physical “work” like pulling, lifting, pushing various objects is definitely a key component to optimal human health. It’s tough to get all this healthy movement in today’s world, when survival requires hours and hours of stressful study and learning to obtain various college degrees, followed by highly stressful, sitting jobs. The stress alone raises cortisol levels significantly, similar to running from a predator. Unfortunately this stress goes on and on for hours, then days, then all our lives. There is nothing “normal” about this.
Eat real food, mostly proteins and fats, Eat to satiety. Learn to recognize satiety. Find excuses to get out of your chair as often as possible, for as long as possible. Implement de-stressing strategies like meditation, gratitude, prayer, slow after-dinner walks, etc


(David) #110

Yes. I hope it’s true that Jimmy is exercising, but I wonder and have doubts.

Everything else in his Jimmy’s life is periscoped, tweeted and instagramned, but not this.

Whatever the case, I have a lot of sympathy for him. Even walking is not that easy when you carry extra weight. The joint and muscle pain, the breathing, the recovery. It’s a long slow process that requires sustained determination and it’s very easy to fall off the exercise wagon when you don’t enjoy it.

The people in this forum are able to exhibit so much honesty, looking for progress in our health goals, because we are anonymous. I wonder whether that is the biggest key for some of us to find help, and when can’t be honest, would it be a surprise if we looked for other explanations to offer others why things are not as we would like them to be. Who knows?

I think Richard had it right when he said Mark Sissons had a book to sell. Whenever anyone is selling us anything (even an idea, and even Jimmy Moore) we should probably expect them to only tell us that part of the story that sorts the sale.

I just wish Jimmy (and everyone else) good luck in reaching their goals. I’m just glad I’m not in the public eye.


(ianrobo) #111

see Jason, I can only talk about endurance sports when speaking about carb cycling and I mean a few extra carbs before and during an event …

personally I do not do it out of choice but happens sometimes and it is fine IMHO. Whether it should be a long term protocol, well thats up for discussion


(Jason Fletcher) #112

This approach is called Targeted Ketogenic Diet this is what i do as well for lifting I got the protocol from here
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index#wiki_tkd


(ianrobo) #113

ah biut Peter Defty calls it OFM as a product sell … is it not carb cycling though in effect ?


(Arlene) #114

I totally agree with you Chance. I’m glad to be out of the public eye too. None of us are perfect. Even knowing I should be moving as much of the day as possible, I don’t get out of my chair NEARLY enough. I appreciate everyone’s efforts and shared results, because I glean every bit of wisdom I can get. Little by little, day by day I am improving myself, and I hope we are all making positive progress in the long run.


(David) #115

Well said Arlene :slight_smile:


#116

No disrespect but then you should see my mail carrier, she walks miles each day, has to lift packages, mail and climb steps. She looks to be in her late 30s or early 40s, has a BMI over 35 and a waist size of probably 50 inches (guessing). She looks quite vibrant but is hardly the picture of health although she is a very good mail person!

While there may be athletes who can compensate for a bad diet, the average person cannot. Peter Attia talks about his first T2 patient in a podcast with Tim Ferriss. The guy was a late 40s construction worker who was very active 8 or more hours a day. He states at one point, there is no way this guy could have been more active but was still overweight with high blood sugar and it was a LC diet that saved him and reversed his diabetes.

I think when we get into the exercise discussion, there is an element of blame that attaches that does not belong with keto and goes back to CICO and the blame there


(Adam Kirby) #117

To me exercise should be discussed for increasing certain markers of health like strength or work capacity. Whatever Jimmy has going on with him and his weight, it’s not because he doesn’t exercise enough.


(Jason Fletcher) #118

He stated has a fear of lowing his BMR so he was eating beyond satiation after a fast. He states it is not about the calories but he did not want to eat below 2500 because of his BMR. AT some point we have to question this logic.


(ianrobo) #119

Well he is going for the CICO logic. Said this before but I think stress is really harming him …


(ianrobo) #120

Not sure where you get that from ?

Keto eating should maintain a healthy weight and bloods etc but sedentary life is not good for anyone regardless if no impact on these.

Also by exercising you gain more muscle and your BMR increases etc