Wittrock's n=1 Ketogenic 4000 kcal Overfeeding 21 Day Challenge

(Nicole) #1

The ketogenic diet is thought by some to make weight loss easier, and weight gain more difficult, due to its macro make up. Some debate that it is merely the effect of the the appetite suppressing effect that accompanies a LCHF diet. (And then yet others, who are not ketogenic, debate is there is not any appetite reducing effect at all.)

As you all know, there have been very few, if any, studies to determine if one gains slowly while overfeeding on a ketogenic diet. There have been a few n=1 self experiments such as Feltham’s (Smash the fat) 5000kcal experiment with higher carb and LCHF diets. It’s not very scientific, and people say he could be lying, so his results are not accepted as fact - results being a gain during the high carb stage and not much at all in the low carb stage.

Jason Wittrock (body builder, model, physique competitor, trainer sponsored by bodybuilder.com) is doing a 4000 kcal overfeeding ketogenic challenge right now. He’s been keto (using CKD or TKD) for over a year and claims that he generally eats about 2000kcal per day - I’m guessing he’s at least 500kcal low on that though. He used the “bod pod” to find his body fat % beforehand, weighed himself, and also did a lipid panel, so he knows where he is starting from.

Wittrock’s just over a week in, and is planning on going to 21 days. I thought some of you might be interested in watching his progress. He says he’s eating about 2000 kcal per day extra to get to 4000kcal so he could be gaining up to 4lbs per week. Maybe just a gain of 2lbs per week if he has severely underestimated his usual daily caloric intake and is only eating 1000 kcal extra per day. That would be surprising though since this is a guy who makes his living being lean.

If indeed there is something to the theory that it is harder to gain fat on a ketogenic diet, he may gain very little in the next 3 weeks, rather than the expected 6-12 pounds. On day 8, he is now down a pound. This could be interesting to follow.

Phase 2: Average dude trying to get from 22% body fat to 15%
This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson
Hullo From Sunny Brighton, UK
#2

Yikes 200 grams of protein? Seems too high. Can kick him out of keto. I’d want to see ketone measurement from blood every day to see if he stays in ketosis.

#3

I’d like to see daily blood ketone measurements, too.

I’ll be watching this thread since this would be an n=1 that offers some insight into GNG being supply or demand driven in this person.

I’ve posted elsewhere in the forum that I personally think that when people blame higher protein for kicking them out of keto, it is because they didn’t consume enough fat and the body resorted to the protein to meet the daily glucose needs, ie. eating a lean sirloin instead of a fatty ribeye. In other words, I’m about 60% convinced that GNG is demand-driven.

#4

My thoughts on the subject is that protein induces an insulinogenic response. Starting a chain reaction, with insulin as a main player, followed by shifting glucose levels, and then influencing GNG

(Crow T. Robot) #5

Many people, especially bodybuilders, don’t have a problem staying in ketosis even with high protein. So much so, that I’m actually a little skeptical of claims that it does in anyone. We’re all different, though, so it’s certainly possible.

(Crow T. Robot) #6

This is what I’m coming to believe as well.

#7

Define “high” protein. As in how many grams protein per kg lean body mass?

(Mike W.) #8

Is this experiment just starting? Where can we follow progress?

(Crow T. Robot) #9

Roughly? Up to 2 gm per kg LBM. I’d call that pretty high protein. I eat mostly meat and eggs and can’t get up to that most of the time, which would be about 140-150 grams for me. Of course, bodybuilders are wont to eat more than that, but with their training routines, I’m not sure they are good examples.

JMHOASTCWN, but I suspect if someone is having trouble losing weight with high protein it’s more about raising insulin than GNG, which is likely to be demand driven.

(Nicole) #10

You can find his daily vlogs on the challenge here:

He’s on day 9 right now.

He started at 148.2 lbs. He’s a 5’7" 35 year old physique competitor. He did a bod pod measure on day one that put him at 5% body fat.

He went up to 149 or 149 something within a few days, and on day 8 he had dropped to 147 lbs which he claims is his lightest ever.

He claims he was eating about 2000kcal before the challenge started. I am guessing that is a bit low, but even if he was close to 3000 kcal per day, a 1000 kcal increase should result in about 6 lbs at the end of 21 days.

#11

I don’t consider 2 g protein per kg lean mass high. The normal range is 1 to 2 grams, and see what works for you. So, the guy on the video says he’s going to eat 200 grams protein per day. That’s 100 kg lean mass (if he uses 2 grams protein per kg lean mass ratio). And 100 kg lean body mass is 220 lbs lean mass equivalent. it will be interesting how his body takes this high load of protein.

(Nicole) #12

He isn’t at 200 g protein, at least that I saw. His protein seems to be around 130-160 g per day, which for a 4000kcal diet is only 13% or so.

He has also commented that he is very metabolically healthy. No sign of IR, so his insulinogenic response to protein may be less that a less healthy person may experience.

Carbs he is keeping at below 50g net.

Fat though? He is eating well over 300 g of fat on most days. Shooters of olive oil. LOL

He has been doing ketone tests too. Blood and ketostix, and a few brands of ketostix too. He’s in ketosis. He’s been following a ketogenic diet for over a year (although I think he used CKD or TKD) so he is most likely fat adapted and staying in ketosis with such a low carb intake.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #13

This is fascinating but I agree with the protein concerns.

Show! Me! The Ketones!

#14

Minute 1:42, he says 200 grams, and it is also written on the screen

(Nicole) #15

Ah okay. Later days it is lower.

Day 2 or 3 he gets his blood ketone monitor. He doesn’t test often. I can’t remember what other days he tests

(eat more) #16

:flushed:
blekk (but…i don’t like olive oil at all)

(Gabor Erdosi) #17

Amount of protein influences ketone levels, but 200 g is very unlikely to kick a fit and muscular individual out of ketosis.

#18

I think many people grasp this intuitively and the debate is over the quantity and method of action.

From my perspective, I would qualify @erdoke’s statement with something like, “provided sufficient quantities of fatty acids are available endogenously or exogenously to support the creation of ketone bodies” or something more sciency that @erdoke or @richard would say. :wink:

(Mike W.) #19

Have you never been to an olive oil shop? SO much better than the grocery store stuff. They really give you little shot glasses to taste.

(eat more) #20

nooooo

lol