This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson

#1

This week’s LLVLC episode is with Mark Sisson. Although the first half or two thirds is about Mark’s new keto book, the last 20 minutes is an ad hoc/off the cuff counseling session where Mark tries to troubleshoot Jimmy’s diet. It’s really interesting. Jimmy was gracious and Mark was genuinely interested and trying to help. (And sounded stumped at some points!). That dialogue was a really good listen. Topics covered include ketone measurements, going in and out of keto, calorie levels, slowing down metabolism, etc.

What happened with Jimmy Moore at the weekend?
(ianrobo) #2

got that one to listen to so will be interesting on what is said.

#3

It was an interesting episode, wondering if JM will implement Mark’s suggestions? He is clearly struggling, so wouldn’t hurt to give it a try. I wish the best for him. I think MS was genuinely wanting to help, but I think he kind of put Jimmy on the spot. Maybe would have been a better conversation for off air. Not saying I don’t agree with his strategy though!

(Adam Kirby) #4

Yeah it was a little cringey given that Jimmy never really mentioned his weight, only that he gets kicked out of ketosis very easily.

(Ethan) #5

Yeah. I found Mark Sisson very plebeian in his inability to understand what insulin resistance can do to a body. He didn’t seem to understand how hard we struggle to stay in ketosis, monitoring not only carb intake, but also protein intake and insulin levels. He implied that it was so easy to just be in ketosis, even with carb intakes well above 50-100g a day!

(Ethan) #6

Stolen from another place, but seems to apply here.

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#7

Agreed. Jimmy did a good job by poking him on this by referring to him and other studs as “unicorns.”

I didn’t think it was terribly cringey. Jimmy went there by questioning Mark’s statements about how “easy” one can go in and out of ketosis. And, I think it’d be disingenuous for Mark to ignore that Jimmy still struggles with his weight. Heck, Jimmy just posted pictures of moldy-asbestos tiles from his house and commented that it might have had something to do with his current weight issues. I give Jimmy mad props for not hiding behind his struggles. I wouldn’t/couldn’t be that brave. So, for Mark to “go there” with someone who’s genuine and honest about his struggles didn’t give me any pause.

#8

We’ll see. The number one recommendation by Mark was to reduce calories from 2500 to 1800 or so. I found Mark’s references to the law of thermodynamics and “deficits” needed to lose weight interesting given that those terms have a CICO-sound to them. He often said it’s “not calories in calories out,” and did discuss brown fat in passing, but I want to listen to that portion again to see if I can understand the basis for the recommendation that Jimmy reduce calories.

(ianrobo) #9

I will defo listen to this tomorrow but if Mark referred to basically CICO he has never watched a Robert Lustig vid has he ? Really telling Jimmy to go form 2500 (normal for a man) to 1800 calories a day, what ???

Jimmy has a problem being like he is in our sphere as he is anatomy amongst so many on keto and people do question him on that. I personally think he may have to go zero carb for a while and just remove all carbs from his diet, maybe so insulin resistant that he has no choice.

#10

It was much more complicated/nuanced than that. You’ll see when you listen to it. I’ll need to re-listen to try and reconcile the statements he’s making.

Also, Mark’s angle on keto for his new book is that he calls it the “Keto Zone” whereby one can go in and out of the “ketosis zone” as desired or needed. Jimmy properly pressed him on this premise, and stated that this in/out movement is easier said than done. Mark seemed genuinely surprised to hear that it takes some people a few days to “get back into ketosis” after going off-plan.

(Ethan) #11

He was surprised at first. He later seemed to think it’s the person’s fault for not being able to get back into ketosis quickly. He was oblivious and uncaring.

(Richard Morris) #12

I think it’s a common human conceit. to identify what you think worked for you, then assume it should work that way for everyone else … and if it doesn’t then they aren’t trying as hard as you.

It’s what Carl and I do tho to be honest … we tell you what worked for us, and what science can describe the mechanism. But we do try to understand why we are all different one from another and what scientific explanations could describe that.

Mark Sisson is likely incorrect that all humans respond to caloric deficit by maintaining metabolic rate and reducing energy storage. If they have low fasted insulin then that would make sense as what is propping up storage is a net energy surplus. If however they have high fasted insulin then the opposite happens, their high insulin causes adipose tissue to hold onto energy and their metabolism goes looking for other budgetary cuts to make.

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Kevin Halls followup of the biggest loser competition showed this. They got insulin resistant overweight people burning 2500 kCal/day and imposed a caloric restriction upon them and they lost weight and their metabolic rate dropped to 2000 kCal/day. 6 years later they put all the weight back on and now they were MORE insultin resistant and had less lean mass than at the beginning of the competition and now their metabolic rate had dropped further to 1900 kCal/day … yet they were still eating a high protein diet and exercising as hard as they had at the end of the competition.

Their metabolic rate dropped and they started using protein for energy because their high insulin fought energy use from storage.

I suspect that Mark has a book to sell about his new invention called the Ketogenic zone where you can eat 40-110g of carbs regularly and be making ketones the next day after a quick workout. I also suspect it will work for about 15% of people.

(Adam Kirby) #13

Mark did state that worrying about calories when your insulin is high is useless. He specifically mentioned the Biggest Loser as a model for this failed idea. His approach for weight loss is first train your body to be good at burning fat (low insulin), and only then look at reducing your calories to spur on fat loss. I realize this may not come easily to some people, but I wonder what Jimmy did in the first place a decade+ ago to lose all his weight.

The problem Mark seems to have is he’s been metabolically healthy for so long it seems to surprise him that others might not be the same, lol.

(Adam Kirby) #14

I totally think calorie reduction works if your basal insulin is low, specifically for the goal of fat loss. If your goal is reversal of chronic disease than it’s meaningless. To me the question is how to do it in the most pleasant way possible that can be sustained for a while. My personal solution has been a carnivore approach.

#15

This is a very good observation/summation of the tone that he set during this interview. It’ll be interesting to see how cavalierly his book deals with the real struggles of those with insulin dysfunction. I give props to Jimmy, again, for calling him out on many statements and trying to keep him honest/play devil’s advocate.

#16

I listened to Mark on another podcast recently with a different host and honestly I agree with @richard, this will work for maybe 15% of the people. I would go further and say it will probably be the same ones who could have lost weight on WW.

I think I may even have posted something the next day questioning the idea of drifting in and out of ketosis. It is a bad idea for the insulin resistant, especially since the one thing that keeps me honest is the idea of spiking insulin if I cheat. Sort of like the alcoholic’s one drink or the smoker’s one hit of nicotine.

The other 85% will go on, will get a lot of hunger, will not be in ketosis and will give up after a binge and we will hear again about why ketosis does not work

(Crow T. Robot) #17

My carnivore experiment was a rousing success. I not only broke a long-time plateau, but really feel like I went to another level in repairing my metabolism. I have had a very easy time keeping off what I lost during my two-ish months of ZC even though I’ve had more carbs in the last two months than I’ve had in the previous year (wedding, honeymoon and new wife not completely on board).

It seems like Jimmy has tried everything else, I wonder if a couple months of ZC would help him with his insulin resistance.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #18

This last weekend, I located and eradicated an insidious mold source in my home (annoying because I am assiduously clean) that may have contributed to a few mystifying symptoms that cropped up in the last month: rapid weight gain, depression, bizarre sneezing jags, a few brief, ice-pick headaches, impaired concentration reading and writing, impaired breathing during all our forest fire smoke in Oregon.

That last one is significant because I LOVE woodsmoke and can and will stand right in it just to marinate my clothes in the scent. Never coughed once in 47 years of that; now I’ve got respiratory distress from a little reduced air quality? WTF?

I’m blaming the mold for all of it and doing an n=1 with N acetyl cysteine for a month. Tick, tock.

#19

Very interesting/scary. Sounds like a nasty inflammatory/systemic response! Fascinating stuff, and there may be something to it…best of luck!

http://www.sternmold.com/mold-and-health/mold-related-illness.php

#20

P.S. For those keeping score at home, Jimmy’s floor didn’t have mold. Just looked like it. Very good/lucky outcome for him.