You can't expect your body to let go of fat that it still needs

(Robin Nandin) #28

I have experienced that also.

#29

I’m pretty much the same in that my weight stays in a very narrow range. In my case any movement either side (even within the confines of a ‘healthy’ bmi) can have an impact seemingly out of all proportion. I think the fact that I fidget (one reason I believe I remain thin) a lot could easily be seen as psychological but my own theory is that there is a definite physiological component - my body is trying to stop me from storing calories that could tip me from pre-diabetes into diabetes. I also can’t lose too much or my reproductive system shuts down even if I’m not underweight by bmi standards. If there can be an upper end to a personal fat threshold can there not be a lower end?

(Ryan Ashton) #30

The main problem I have with your write-up is that you imply that somehow one’s body has a will of it’s own. It doesn’t. The body operates as the body operates. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have created a body that runs like it does.

There is no way that you could ever force your body to do anything. Your body is simply reacting to what you put into it and when you put it in.

If you’ve plateaued, there is a physiological reason. If, on the other hand, you have sworn off eating breakfast but then still eat breakfast, that is a psychological reason and needs to be addressed as such.

As I already mentioned, your body is not independent of you and can’t “heal” or “protect” you. It simply does what it is designed to do.

My suggestion is that if you’ve plateaued, find out more science and apply that science to your problem. Don’t turn “the body” into a separate sentient being that has it’s own thoughts and ideas. That’s the opposite of science. That’s called superstition and it’s superstition that is the greatest danger to the ketogenic movement.

We have a chance to change the world, but we need to do it scientifically.

(Ryan Ashton) #31

Have you tried Intermmitent Fasting?

Insulin is THE reason your body stores fat. Decrease the amount of insulin and the number of times it spikes (from consuming food) and you’ll use more body fat stores for energy.

Also, here is a list of 14 things you an do to decrease your insulin resistance (based on science):

#32

Some good tips here.

#33

@Sarah_Bruhn your empathic points about the mind-body intelligence and the many still unknown and quite non-linear processes and criticially important recoveries that go on within it (esp when it has a trauma history and/or is female) can be encouraging to both trauma survivors and so-called “slow losers” - thank you. :avocado:

@Ryan_Ashton “The main problem with your write up is…” followed by misuse of the quote functionality for absolutisms volleying is confusing. Thinly veiled bullying or aggrieved entitlement? With no attempt to frame yourself, it could be taken as mundane mansplaining - and actually not “good tips”. Additionally, without emojis or gifs, there’s no emotional tone to clarify anything otherwise, so I just stopped reading.

I think we need to ask “what science?” - because modern science is not the only kind of science, and, neither is modern science very intrepid in many regards. It’s often simply PAID, as Jason Fung MD so well recently laid out in a recent awesome interview :heart_eyes: Excellent new video talk by Dr. Fung: On balancing insulin/leptin - and on Research Politics!

Bessel Van der Kolk MD is the first physician who has connected the science of body-based trauma in significant published research. Trauma and shock embodiment impact the brain, nervous system, endocrine system and more in ways that can seem quite independent - and the body tells the truth of our experience.

It was only about 15 years ago that industrial medical science acknowledged that infants feel pain. Up until that time, many tortuous practices and/or routine protocols were done on newborns in hospitals with little regard for properly interpreting their specific extreme distress screams. Add to that, the cultural context of minimizing early shock and trauma and denying the systemic nature of various kinds of violence when it has to do with exploiting and/or terrorizing children, females, people of color, indigenous peoples, differently-abled people - and its epidemic proportions of walking wounded.

Similarly, it’s only been quite recently that both stress-related cortisol combined with other things like IR and environmental endocrine disrupters are being scientifically understood as a western industrial equation in terms of body fat among other things (moreso for those with trauma histories as well as for females in general and midlife female metabolisms in particular, along with vulnerable children in their developmental years). Some bodies recompose much slower than others even with best practices for LCHF/keto and/or IF. It’s a well known fact that most “science” in this regard is founded in male-centered confirmation biases and inquiry, etc.

I think western science is quite immature both in terms of chronological time, as well as in its outlook (“unless western science names it, it never existed before, and all those ancient cultures and their many advanced knowledge bases don’t matter”) - as well as ethics (as in, who pays for what studies at which schools and so on) - far behind the integrative and functional understanding of eastern science.

But, Dr. Van der Kolk and a small contingent of trauma specialists are doing some great work to advanced body-based modalities that work directly with the stone age nervous system and often are much more effective than years of talk therapy or identity-based superficial fixes.

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma-dp-0143127748/dp/0143127748/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=

#34

(On that theme of trauma and how it’s stored in the body let’s not forget the work of Peter Levine since the '70s)

#35

Love his work! Didn’t mention him as he’s a PhD psychologist not an MD, which was my focus - but YES! A trailblazer in the field.

#36

What…really!!! You lost 40lb in 8 weeks, that’s incredible…well done.

(Bev) #37

Glad I’m not the only one who does that!

(Mary) #38

Thanks for the link, Ryan.
I’d hoped there might be something in there that I haven’t tried but sadly, no.
And yes, I IF for 16-24 hours daily. Am trying to work up to 36 hours a couple times a week.

(Wendy) #39

That is simply not true. The body is constantly doing things that I have no ultimate control over. Things like breathing, heart beat, fighting infections. And I believe keeping the metabolism where the body deems it to be. Burning the calories it knows it has with a much bigger goal and complexity than science at this point can explain. Science is simply a way to explain truths, or at least try.
But I do agree it does do what it was designed to do, and usually quite well.

(Kirk Wolak) #40

Hank,
First, I would recommend Intermittent Fasting. It’s the simplest thing to do. Currently I eat one meal, on MWF (mostly carnivore and fatty. Bacon + Whatever I want, until I am full).

One of the things I truly found was that Food Allergies (Imagine being allergic to your favorite veggies. That’s me). The less I ate the better I felt. Because I have to have my wits about me for work, I do a BPC every morning (fasting or otherwise, but no butter/dairy, just MCT oil). Then water.

Let me ask… Are you consuming ANY Diet Drinks? (Because my glucose meter showed they mess with my insulin levels. When you are OBESE, they have shown that LOOKING at a dessert can cause an insulin release! Any sweet taste in your mouth will cause an insulin release. IGNORE these KETO KIDS who show you “Look at my meter, no result”… Yeah, Well ONCE I got to 6-7 on my blood ketones, 75g of PURE Glucose for a GTT did NOT take me out of ketosis. And I STILL WOULD NOT TOUCH Diet Soda again!) Things change when you are deep in ketosis.

Tell me, how deep is your ketosis level? How is your morning Glucose/Ketones and GKI (learn to calculate this, (US Glucose/18)/Ketones or EuropeanGlucose/Ketons. Below 3 is therapeutic, but I like mine around 1.

Finally, stress and sleep. DUH. And hot weather. Stressful when you are overweight. Your body is trying to keep cool. It is sweating and fighting it. TRY FASTING. Cut the caffeine except in the AM. When I did that, and dropped the 2L of diet soda. I started sleeping SOOOO Much better. Felt less stressed, and my BP went down.

Curious. Where is your BP? (If you are not measuring these things, and tracking how many times you put food in your mouth, you are missing the point). I don’t want to sound bossy here, but here are the facts.

  1. Insulin is the problem
  2. EVERYTHING you eat outside of WATER/Black Coffee/Tea WILL generate an insulin response!
  3. Eating Pork Rinds as a SNACK. Bad Idea. When you are obese, your body assumes that food means sugar.
  4. Therefore, measure your Glucse/Ketones level, and LIMIT your eating windows to 60 minutes for a meal.
  5. use intermittent fasting to get down to 2 meals a day
  6. If you test your glucose in the AM it should be the highest of the day, on a fasting day for sure, but it should also PROVE You do not need breakfast.

Those things should help set you straight. If you are stressed, then practice mindfulness, mediation or relaxation. Stress is based on Perception. It sounds like you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself, or letting other people load you with pressure. I recommend learning to say no. Also, practice separating your SITUATION from your LIFE… Work will always be there tomorrow.

I truly hope something in here helps you…

(Ryan Ashton) #41

Haha. I’m not saying the body can’t do things without your conscious effort. Lol. :wink:

That’s called the autonomic nervous system.

But OP said you’re body is “healing” and “protecting” you. The body can’t do that. It’s not a separate sentient being. The body does what the body does and is wonderful at it.

Please, in future, take the original context into account.

#43

To be fair - the below is a quote from you copied from here I think I’m out, y’all

“No, not weird. I think that’s your body talking to you - telling you that you don’t need what’s in meat. Possibly. Or just some unusual aversion from a body out of whack.”

#44

Let’s not get too absolutist either - absolutism is very fragile, whereas nuance and complexity is much more antifragile.

I grant that there are different genres of scientists - however, a large systematic survey study of medical students done in the 90s reported that over 80% of them are in it for financial gain as the number one goal.

The science of the 20th century was Cartesian to the hilt. Dualism, biophobia, misogyny, and egomania aren’t the only way of doing science.

The question is, how much iatrogenia will be eradicated in the 21st century? How much empathy and respect will be restored? What I love about LCHF/keto is that there is quite the grassroots revolution happening in folks doing their n=1s and thinking for themselves.

Science generally is assumed to be western industrial materialism - however, there’s eastern and indigenous science as well - if one considers empiricism, skepticism, and intuition scientific methods. Very advanced civilizations with advanced math, healing modalities, navigation, and architectural feats existed in the west and east long before western materialist science - witness Chichen Itza (just one example of many amazing ones).

Nowadays I think it’s heavily weighted on the BOUGHT science, along with the neomaniacal. For more on that, see the work of Nassim Nicholas Taleb - a global thought leader and independent scholar:

“Your grandmother’s advice - though it be may be mistaken every once in a while and it’s not that “scientific” is definitely more robust that the scientific results we’re getting today - particularly in psychology and social sciences.” August, 2018 at the 9th Intl Conference on Complex Systems

BTW, Taleb goes into metabolism, hormesis, post-traumatic growth, low carb and more in his recent book Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder, heavily cited by Romanian independent keto researcher Cristi Vald.

(TJ Borden) #45

Agree 100%. Unfortunately MOST of what is passed off as science, especially when it comes to nutrition, doesn’t follow the scientific method.

Generally the hypothesis is established and observations are cherry picked to support that hypothesis, then conclusions are presented without any actual tests.

(TJ Borden) #46

It seems like you’re disagreeing for the sake of being contrary, only to follow it up with the same point @Sarah_Bruhn was making.

If you cut your hand, then (baring any medical conditions that interrupt the process) your body will stop the bleeding, protect the wound, and eventually there will be little to no sign the wound ever happened.

By your argument that doesn’t count as healing, but just the body doing what it does… which is healing.

(Ryan Ashton) #47

You completely lost me. Could you explain what all this means? I’m clearly not as bright as you, so you’re going to have to dumb it down a bit.

I have heard the term “mansplaining” and as I understand it, it’s your way of telling me that anyone reading this can basically disregard whatever I said as valueless.

You also used “aggrieved entitlement”, which I had to google and it seems to have a lot of links with “angry white men” and “masculinity”.

It seems to me that you have discounted everything I’ve said because I’m a man and specifically an “angry white man”.

Why do you do that? Why do you have to try and make this about who I am as opposed to only about what I said?

I don’t have a problem with you disagreeing with me, but it’s completely unnecessary to bring the fact that I’m a man and that I’m white into it. That immediately makes me feel like an outsider. Was that your intention: to make me feel like I don’t belong here? If so, you did a bang-up job.

I’m entitled to disagree with what this person wrote regardless of who she is and I don’t feel that it’s fair that I now have to try and defend myself against personal attack, even if only implied.

Other people disagreed, at least somewhat with @Sarah_Bruhn, including @grinch734 and @Regina, so why do you have to bring my sex and colour into it?

You’re clearly a very bright and articulate person (far more so than me - lol). It’s unfortunate that you have to resort to bringing up the sex and race of the person making a statement that you don’t like as opposed to just sticking to what was said.

Now, let me try and focus on the subject at hand:

I don’t agree with what @Sarah_Bruhn was saying for the following reasons:

How could you ever force your body to do anything? It’s a ridiculous premise.

How are you going to find out why your body needs the fat? Again, it doesn’t make sense. Are you going to ask your body, “Why are you holding onto this extra fat?” And then what? Is your body going to reply? How?

How can your body “betray” you? It also can’t protect and heal you. It can protect and heal itself through natural processes such as the action of the liver, etc. But this doesn’t require “positive thinking” or something. Give your body the right nutrients, sleep properly, decrease stress, etc and - barring problems in genetics or disease, etc - your body will do what it is designed to do.

Nobody’s body “holds onto fat”. Of course there can be psychological reasons for not losing weight. Someone might eat more because the extra weight makes them feel protected or more commonly because eating feels good.

The only thing that I want is for the public at large to experience the benefits of the ketogenic diet. I honestly believe that this way of eating can fix so many problems with the world. But if we, as the ketogenic community, are to have a positive impact, it will be because we show the science. I feel this write-up does the opposite: it makes it seem - at least to me - that @Sarah_Bruhn is implying that somehow the body is a separate entity and has a mind of it’s own and does it’s own thing. That idea, in my opinion, is ludicrous and I am standing by that.

I have nothing against her personally and I’m sure she is a very nice person but I don’t agree with the way this write-up comes across.

(TJ Borden) #48

Giving another example of what @SlowBurnMary was referring to as a response to her calling you out on it. I’m not sure if you were trying to be clever, or if you’re just an asshole.

It seems your issue is really with the idea of referring to the body as a separate entity from ones self. While that might be a legitimate philosophical discussion, it doesn’t negate the points @Sarah_Bruhn was making.

I think it’s understandable to refer to the body as a separate entity when we are differentiating between conscious (in general, what we control) and the sub-conscious (in genral, what we can’t control).