Possibly worth its own subcategory: Alcohol and keto?

(Steak and iron) #42

lol

(anonymous294) #43

@erdoke, I understand this. But if you wish to consume alcohol in moderation, is it better to have alcohol by itself (without any dietary fat) or to have the alcohol with some dietary fat? Which is better if you wish to minimize the insulin & blood glucose response, as well as minimize the length of time that ketosis is suspended? Or does either practice make any significant difference whatsoever with regards to how long the alcohol suspends ketosis, or with regards to the impact of the alcohol on blood glucose & insulin levels? Thanks for your followup!

(Gabor Erdosi) #44

I feel that you overcomplicate this stuff. Enjoy a glass of wine with some cheese or without, whatever you prefer.

(Steak and iron) #45

Iā€™m pretty convinced that adding any additional calories to your alcohol consumption is counterproductive, even if they are just fat. There is an insulin response assocaited with alcohol consumption that could store it.

(anonymous294) #46

@erdoke. Do you think this question isnā€™t important or relevant? If you are referencing alcohol consumption for someone who is not metabolically challenged or overweight, then I understand & do agree with your response. But I was seeking your expert opinion regarding best practice for someone who is diabetic or insulin resistant, overweight, & who wishes to maximize ketosis, fat burning, & insulin sensitivity as much as possibleā€¦while still enjoying wine occasionally. Please clarify if you believe adding dietary fat when consuming alcohol is good, bad, or makes no difference? Thank You!

(anonymous294) #47

Thank you for your reply! The matter is confusing to me, as my prior understanding was that combining alcohol with food could potentially help mitigate the insulin response.

(Gabor Erdosi) #48

You donā€™t have to drink alcohol at all. Similarly, you donā€™t have to maximize ketone levels as it doesnā€™t have further proven benefits for diabetes. I mean sporting 1 mmol or 3 mmol on average makes not much difference. You can maximize fat burning by increasing the consumption of foods that are known to induce more thermogenesis while have suppressing effects on satiety. Also, add other environmental influences that increase thermogenic demand, especially in adipose tissue, e.g cold exposure.
One way to increase ketone levels is fasting, however the benefits donā€™t come from the higher ketone levels per se.
I personally manage an autoimmune disease with the KD and do see a benefit of higher ketones, although never measure its level, so am not aware about the threshold. However, the benefit I literally feel in my bones is suppressed inflammation from the disease, quite different to your expectations.

(anonymous294) #49

@erdoke Thank you for your followup. I do wish to occasionally have alcohol. Does having dietary fat with the alcohol help to minimize the insulin impact? Is dietary fat consumed with alcohol likely to be stored because of the insulin response to alcohol?

When I said ā€œmaximize ketosis & fat burningā€, I wasnā€™t refering to ketone leveIs. I was referencing how to minimize the amount of time ketogenesis & fat burning are suspended while your body prioritizes metabolism of the alcohol.

(Gabor Erdosi) #50

Dietary fat itself elicits an insulin response. All foods do. I havenā€™t seen a study specifically looking into the differences between insulin responses to alcohol with or without fat, so I am not of further help with this.
Yes, if you drink alcohol its burning is prioritized even over glucose, so will have an impact on burning fat. Amount matters for sure.

(Tina) #51

Yes, sadly I had that happen to me. I demanded a blood test, and the policeman said they donā€™t do those in that city. So as soon as I was released I went to the ER and paid out of pocket for one. I took this report to my lawyer and he was able to get the DUI dropped. The good news is no DUI, but the lawyer wasnā€™t cheap. I had not checked my blood ketones that morning buy I was blowing ā€œinsta-redā€ on the Ketonix. I donā€™t remember the exact # I blew but it equated to a Super Extreme which would be over a .2. For me that would be like 19 beers.

(Roxanne) #52

YES, this happens to me, too. I tried asking about it on the old FB forum and it didnā€™t seem to be a common occurrence. Like you, I make sure Iā€™m hydrated and take magnesium and potassium supplements regularly, and I up my salt intake if Iā€™ve had a drink, but itā€™s still problematic.

Have you since found any relief?

(Georgette) #53

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. The answer is no. Iā€™ve added a calcium supplement to my regimens, but I still get leg cramps when I drink.

(Dave Smith) #54

I think I do get buzzed more easily while Keto-ing. Watch it though cause your liver is busy with fats while you are in Ketosis so you are throwing more work at it when it has to process that alcohol. And do not go for the sugary drinks. I do whiskey or bourbon with ice or neat. Maybe some non-sweet wine but thatā€™sa bit more carby than the straight liquor generally. Iā€™d say to remember to drink a little more water if youā€™re having some booze in Ketosis.

(Jillian) #55

So youā€™re saying i should eat some bacon with my whiskey?:wink::wink::joy:

(Tina Emmons) #56

I hope youā€™re leaving out some zeros here. .2 is 2 1/2 times the legal limit in the US and 4.0, youā€™re dead! We are .08 but anyone reading this take note!!! You can be arrested and fully prosecuted with a .05 in CA. Itā€™s the true limit and they donā€™t tell us. Donā€™t ask me how I know!

(Vesa McD) #57

I think they use dl (deciliters) here in Finland instead, which throws off the decimal in countries with different units. Good point, though. My meter, in that case, maxes out at 0.4.

(barrytspencer) #58

Someone mentioned beer as ā€˜liquid breadā€™
I find if I drink iā€™m tempted to eat more and sometimes carby-foods

(icky) #59

So, Iā€™m curious about the alcohol/ keto thing.

Obviously, itā€™s a free world, so I and everyone else can combine keto and alcohol, however they see fit.

Iā€™m interested in understanding the effects of say 2 glasses of wine in terms of keto/ insulin/ blood sugar/ fat burning/ etc. so that I know what Iā€™m dealing with/ not dealing with, if I choose to have some wine with a meal.

^ The first time I tried Keto in 2018, I definitely noticed this. My sense of ā€œdrunkennessā€ would totally plateau. In fact, I recall not even getting that ā€œbuzzā€ā€¦ It felt kinda like I couldnā€™t get that nice relaxed-buzzed-fun-easy feeling that 2 glasses of wine would usually give me. I havenā€™t tried it out on Keto this time yetā€¦

^This makes sense to me and I think Iā€™ve heard it beforeā€¦ That the liver prioritises getting the toxin out of the body and that many other things are put on hold as a result.

^ I have never heard this beforeā€¦ Thatā€™s kinda cool/ interesting/ weird.

Soā€¦ alcohol and ketoā€¦ whatā€™s there to know/ consider thatā€™s specific to keto as opposed having a drink or two when youā€™re eating a carby dietā€¦?

(Bob M) #60

Usually, alcohol lowers blood sugar. See this for instance:

(A bit of a strange study, because the first two blood glucose values go up for the alcohol, but the end result is more hypoglycemia, meaning more lowered blood sugar. Insulin is higher for the alcohol, which could explain the lowered blood sugar over time.)

As for alcoholā€™s effect, I have found it to be weird. Sometimes, a single drink will hit me hard; other times, it doesnā€™t hit me much at all. Itā€™s unclear why.

(Kirk Wolak) #61

Before Carbs, we had ALCOHOLIC FATTY LIVER, now we have NAFLD.
Poisoning your Organs is probably bad. I truly believe Steve Jobs would be here today if he went Keto instead of Fruitarian. Where I believe he damaged his pancreas, leading to pancreatic cancer.

Of course, you are a grown up. You Do You. But want to chime in. Iā€™ve known a few drinkers. Alcoholism and Addiction run in my family. I am lucky that food was my addiction. If you are wondering about ā€œDrinking DAILYā€ or some approximation of thatā€¦ I would recommend getting help.

I NEVER felt better the day after drinking. In fact, I would feel worse immediately if I drank things with dark colors, etc. So maybe itā€™s me.

But I believe Alcohol is a poison firstā€¦ And a social lubricant like 5thā€¦
It has impaired my ability to think. And while I thought it was ā€œfunā€ in my late teensā€¦ No thank you.

Is drinking with carbs ā€œless badā€ than drinking without them? Probably not.
It depends on your goals. If you want to be healthy, then KETO/Carnivore and Drink for celebrations (Your Birthday, Your Anniversary, New Years) seems reasonable to me.

But I had someone ask me ā€œOkay, help me do Ketoā€¦ What kind of alcohol can I have? ā€¦ Daily ā€¦ And stay in Ketosis ā€¦ But 2-3 times a week, I know I am going to overdo itā€¦ Is that bad? Will it still work?ā€

I refer to it as ā€œDirty, Rotten, Stinking Drunk Ketoā€¦ā€ That was DAILY dinking plus one or more WEEKLY Bingesā€¦

Personally, I would just kill myself with Carbs as if I had 3 months left to live.
So, I am probably not the right person to ask. If I had 3 months left to live, I am NOT SURE if I would drink once a month!

But only because once I gave it up for a yearā€¦ Then the first shot of GOOD vodka I hadā€¦ Made my joints swell up, and I Could not even close my hand. I Couldnā€™t imagine what was happening in my liver. (Not a vodka fan, but it was really clean, and it was a test).