Inexplicably out of ketosis?

#1

Hi all,

not freaking out or obsessing about this, but something has happened that should not have happened.
I woke up in strong ketosis yesterday and did not eat one calory until evening, and I (obviously) still was in strong ketosis in the evening.

Yesterday evening I ate some salmon wellington, with one glass of white wine. The Wellington has, of course, some puff pastry. I calculated some 40g of carbs at most, so I was curious of how this would go. After the meal, apple cider vinegar and Berberine. I have a record of getting away with around 40g of carbs (means: I stay in ketosis as constantly measured with the acetone breath reader).

When I eat too much carbs, the “punishment” comes after around 14 hours, but this time I was confident there would be no punishment. This morning and until lunch time I had high ketosis level, and was fasted until lunch.

For lunch I ate homemade fettuccine made with lupin flour and egg, with some gluten. Perhaps 9g carbs in all. I added one glass of red wine, let’s call it 5g carbs. Then I rounded it up with radicchio and gorgonzola cheese (100% keto). Nothing else. Of course, this was a very ketogenic meal, so I thought I am fine for the day.

However, it is now almost 6pm and I am officially out of ketosis, after seeing my values gradually going down in the last hours (I am home so I am playing with my acetone reader all the time).

It seems very difficult to believe that I got out of ketosis 20-21 hours after eating yesterday’s carbs (followed by both vinegar and berberine!), which were also within my normal acceptance limit. It seems even more difficult to believe that, after not going out of keto for full 15 hours (still high values at lunch time) I then crash out of keto after a very “keto” meal.

Heck, if my 14% carbs Lupin flour (I used less than 60g for today’s meal) gets me out of ketosis anyway I can just as well use the normal wheat flower.

The explanations I have come out with are all unsatisfactory:

  1. The acetone reader isn’t working well (but it has been working well up to now).

  2. The Lupin flour “cheats” the body into thinking that wheat pasta was ingested and thus triggers the production of insulin, in the same way as aspartame can trigger the stomach to produce gastric juices (but I ate the same flour last week, and nothing happened; however, last week I had a very heavy cheese sauce, today a much lighter tomato and tuna fish sauce).

  3. When I eat carbs, I get kicked out of ketosis 20 and more hours later (but this contradicts the constant experience with the acetone reader, whereby if I am still in ketosis after 14 hours my ketosis levels increase thereafter).

It’s the weekend so I don’t really mind after 5 straight days in ketosis. But again, AFAIK this shouldn’t be happening and I wonder whether at this point I should just not abandon myself to a decent risotto on a Saturday instead of playing with the lupin flour.

Insights highly appreciated.

#2

Of course it should be, you ate carbs, your body has no reason to produce ketones. Until your liver burns it all back off, it is what it is. Don’t worry about things that don’t matter, including ketone measurament. Eat right 90% of the time, and you have nothing to worry about.

Wrong, once your body starts burning carbs ketosis goes byebye, you can measure ketones until they’re all burned off, which takes a while, espeically since they’re also put on the back burner since your body has carbs to burn. Doesn’t mean your still in ketosis. I can eat a loaf of bread, drink some exogenous ketones, and show blood ketones for the whole day, doesn’t mean I’m in ketosis, it means I have ketones in my blood despite the fact that I’m not. Again, this is why measuring them is a waste of time.

(icky) #3

Hmm… it sounds to me like you’re much more interested in cheating, than eating ketogenically (from your other posts too).

I understand about wanting your diet to be as flexible and multi-varied as possible, but it sounds like you’re trying to not eat ketogenically, then throw in some Berberine and trying to call it “keto” again.

I’m not sure it’s really a helpful attitude and I suspect you’re kidding yourself.

But you’re obviously free to experiment around with your diet, as every human being is and to call it whatever you want.

(Joey) #4

Yeah, this resonates with my reaction.

@Chetogenico I could go on about acetone testing, what level of ketones is indicative of whatever, lag effects, wasting ketones, blah, blah…

But I do get the impression you’re trying to see how far you can push eating carbs and still score some preconceived stat on a (misunderstood, error-prone) consumer quality meter.

Instead: I humbly suggest you reflect on your larger objectives in trying to limit your dietary carbs in the first place.

If your own goals are seriously important to you, make choices accordingly.

On the other hand, if they’re not terribly important (and there’s no shame if not) then kick back and enjoy the n=1 self-experimentation. There’s nothing wrong with having fun with science.

But don’t then get all flustered when you see the results you get. Simply take notes and leverage the insights to your advantage.

:vulcan_salute:

#5

Ah, what a brilliant way to explicate the inexplicable! Now it’s all clear! It also explains why the end of the ketosis effect, as measured by the acetone breath metre, is different than I thought!

I think the lesson is: there’s no way to limit the effect of carbs on my eating.

No.

I don’t “cheat”. What I want to do, I do, and what I don’t want to do, I don’t. I am just not trying to do what most people here are doing.

I am interested in being in ketosis for 5 days a week, and have fun the other two. Yes, I tweak and experiment and want to see where the limits are, but I really don’t mind eating carbs two days a week and a ketogenic diet the other five.

My main aim in following the ketogenic diet is the fasting. In particular, it is the OMAD 4 days a week. This I do (same as the Berberine, the NMN, and other stuff) for general health reasons.

The ketogenic diet is my gateway to the OMAD, because it makes it so much easier to actually pull it off. This week, as every week I have been doing this (bar my holiday week), I carried out my 4 days OMAD with Swiss regularity. I don’t “cheat”, and I don’t “kid myself”. But when the weekend comes, I want to experiment, see how my body reacts, see if and how I can limit the impact of the carbs, etc.

I will keep eating carbs every weekend, irrespective of being kicked out of letosis.

It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.

#6

Agree 100% and, in fact, I opened my post by saying that I wasn’t flustered. Still, I think it’s important to understand why certain things happen. Which is what Ifod14 did, brilliantly I must say.

(Joey) #7

Point well taken, you did … and indeed @lfod14 typically brings solid insights to the exchange. :+1:

#8

Correcto!

Correct again! You are NOT in the minority on that either, including here! Many of us long timers experiment, see what works for us, those of us that are super athletic or in my case big into weight lifting have more carbs around workouts etc. We’re not all cookie cutter keto’rs. It just seems that way sometimes. Can’t agree more that it’s not “cheating”. Your WOE isn’t your husband/wife. It’s just food. Sometimes you eat on plan, sometimes you eat like crap, that’s just called real life and being normal.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

The body needs very little glucose circulating in the blood stream. What little it requires can be made by the liver, if we don’t eat any. Production of glucose (gluconeogenesis) and ketones (ketogenesis) in the liver is regulated by the levels of two hormones produced in the pancreas: glucagon, which stimulates production; and insulin, which inhibits it.

If we eat more glucose (= carbohydrate) than we need, then glucagon drops and insulin rises. The effect is to throw the body out of metabolising fatty acids and into metabolising glucose instead. The point of this is to keep the serum glucose at a low enough level to avoid damage. (Unfortunately, the elevated insulin required to accomplish this is also damaging.) So the liver stops making glucose and ketones and instead switches to converting excess glucose into fats to be stored in our adipose tissue, where they are trapped until insulin drops low enough again.

The effect of dietary carbohydrate on the body depends on (a) how much of it is digestible, and (b) how much of an insulin response is required to deal with the excess. Fibre, which is by definition indigestible, passes through the body and gets excreted. Digestible carbohydrates get broken down into their constituent glucose molecules and absorbed into the blood stream, with the predicable effect on glucagon and insulin and eventually, on circulating ketones.

Ketones can remain in the body, or be excreted, for some time after the ingestion of carbohydrate, because the cells of the body have been instructed not to metabolise them, but rather to metabolise glucose instead. How long it takes the liver to start producing ketones again depends on a number of factors, but researchers have shown that one day of high-carb eating can lead to a period of several days before the liver starts making ketones again. The researchers Jacob Wilson and Ryan Lowery, exercise physiologists, have some very interesting data in this regard. For athlestes who desire maximum performance, they recommend not carb cycling.

Ketone bodies are not merely fuel for the brain, they are also potent signaling molecules with powerful epigenetic effects. So the importance of staying in ketosis is not just metabolic.

#10

Many thanks PaulL. I will read and re-read your post several times and in instalments, because there is so much to learn and, well, digest! :grinning:

This is, basically, my whole interest in ketosis, though I wouldn’t say “no” to losing some pounds. It is, also, the reason of my experimenting and asking around as I try to find an equilibrium between (moderate) weekend carb ingestion and midweek full-on keto diet.

I hope this is, broadly speaking, true for people who don’t fast, right? I fast 16:8 (or 17:7) 1 day a week and around 22.5/1.5 four days a week. I see my acetone levels going from basically 0 to a fairly high and then very high level within 14-24 hours. I cannot but conclude from this that, when I have a high reading (say: 29) some (say again) 16 hours after having crashed to an extremely low reading (say: 2), this is an indication that my body has been producing ketones again for several hours already, and this is now (with the lag in the acetone reader measurement) reflected in my breath.

Am I wrong in my assumption?

(Mind here: having practised IF for years now, I dare to hope I am faster in my switch to ketosis than a keto newbie).

Thanks

Chetogenico

(Joey) #11

Acknowledging that we’re all different (from each other) and changing (over the course of our lives), I’ll take a stab at a generalization…

The primary effect of intermittent fasting (e.g., TMAD, with narrow eating window), is that it gives the body a chance for insulin to decline in contrast to the incessant insulin “storm” of routine grazing/snacking throughout the day.

Over the long term, fewer insulin spikes (and, in conjunction with carb restriction: smaller insulin excursions above one’s baseline) provide for a reduction in resistance to insulin by the body’s tissues/organs.

The benefits of lessening insulin resistance - akin to increasing insulin sensitivity - are well understood to be reducing: T2D, metabolic syndrome, inflammation, arterial damage, etc.

“IF” in and of itself is very effective for improving metabolic health.

And by avoiding carbs and fueling on (self-produced) ketones, the challenge of skipping meals isn’t much of a challenge at all.

Even slim folks (like me) with limited body fat stores can typically wait until well after noon before even thinking about eating something. Absent the carbs, hunger is no longer a beast to reckon with. It’s a signal that it’s time for some healthy fat + protein.

So yeah, I’d say that with your IF (restricted eating window) you are in a far better position to gaining many of the benefits that draw most folks to a keto WOE in the first place. Avoiding carbs consistently will only make the beneficial effects more pronounced.

#12

Thanks Joey,
very encouraging!
Today is Monday, therefore from now to Saturday it will be full keto anyway :wink:

(Kirk Wolak) #13

While I think you have your answer from others who have posted.

Personally, if I (normally carnivore, and usually have to be < 5g carbs/day for Ketosis) am fasting, for 40hrs… I can tolerate some carbs… Like maybe 15g. ONE DAY and not whack myself out of ketosis. (As others mentioned, I will likely come out in the short term, and end up back in, quickly enough). Adding some exercise (Walking, or squats) can really help to burn glycogen and give those carbs some place to go.

But if I do that… Say 2 days in a row, like you mentioned. OMG… Not on my life. I would be out of ketosis, and working for 2-3 days to get my numbers back under control. The DOSE determines the poison.

And alcohol… Ouch… You know that they gave Type 1 Diabetics a shot of Vodka… Because Alcohol shuts off ketone production? Before we had insulin to give them.

Anyways. you are lucky enough that you can be in ketosis with more than 5g (TOTAL carbs)/day. (My BFF could go 50g and be in ketosis. 20yrs later, because he kept playing with it… He CANNOT. His metabolism caught up to his actions!)

You do you… But I think you are playing with fire. (I say I drink about 4 times/year. But I just counted TWICE this year. One was my birthday. Not sure I will have anything over Xmas/New Years)… Not worth the inflammation for me.

Possibly worth its own subcategory: Alcohol and keto?