Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet

(mole person) #242

Ok, so here is why I thought it so bad. They state in the introduction that they wanted to develop this tool for the following reason:

That the ratio of blood ketones to blood glucose will be a more stable biomarker then glucose and ketones separately. So you’d expect in their analysis that they’d actually show this increased value. But they never do. And they have the mouse data, so there is no reason for them not to calculate it. My feeling is that ketone level alone does the trick and makes their GKI irrelevant.

But this is what angered me.

“We present evidence showing that the GKI can predict success for brain cancer management in humans and mice using metabolic therapies that lower blood glucose and elevate blood ketone levels.”

*My emphasis.

They did nothing of the sort and it’s damn irresponsible of them to say that they have.

#243

@FrankoBear I really liked the BioHackers Lab interview with Zsofia too. I’ve not listened to the other one yet. Hope to do that this weekend, thanks.

#244

It’s great to discuss and get thinking.

I wonder about the benefit of blood insulin levels compared to ketones, and whether that ratio may be an improvement? But that is hampered by non-insulin dependent cell membrane glucose transporters.

The thought came because we often use blood glucose in our ketogenic diet as a proxy marker for insulin secretion (and also for guessing at ketosis, if ketones aren’t measured).

The PKD monitoring is a scenario where the Glucose:Ketone Index may have its best application? (Outside of the sensitive cancer conversation).

(Justin Jordan) #245

My inner cynic notes that this actually offers them an out - if someone has their cancer progress or type 1 diabetes continue, they can just say they’re not following the protocol. Which may be true, because, well, it’s difficult. So there’s lot of room for deflection there.

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or, really, any evidence. Not just claims.

#246

So I looked at the results again.

Both individuals were placed on a ketogenic diet for eight weeks. During the 8-week treatment period, GKI dropped from about 27.5 to about 0.7 – 1.1 in the patients. The patient with the anaplastic astrocytoma, who did not have a response to prior chemotherapy, had a 21.7% reduction in fluorodeoxyglucose uptake at the tumor site (no chemotherapy during diet). The patient with the cerebellar astrocytoma received standard chemotherapy concomitant with the ketogenic diet. Fluorodeoxyglucose uptake at the tumor site in this patient was reduced by 21.8%. Quality of life was markedly improved in both children after initiation of the KD [27].

They show a drop in the GKI in both patients using a ketogenic diet. Both patients have brain tumours. They demonstrate a measurable reduction difference in glucose (labelled) uptake at the tumour site. They state with references a clinical observation, “Quality of life was markedly improved in both children after initiation of the KD“ (KD = ketogenic diet). Within its context and limits this seems successful. They applied the GKI tool in the monitoring.

I didn’t dive into the mouse data as the human case studies have more relevance, I think.

Are those limited results evidence enough for the claim?

I wrote all this then understanding dawned on me. I am slow on the uptake. Thanks for putting up with me ponderously working through it.

I understand we are applying at the root of the discussion a different metric for evidence and that this observational evidence (n=1 x 2) is not the same, nor as good quality, as statistically significant evidence. But is it adequate?

(mole person) #247

Yes, my thoughts have travelled this route as well. They claim that they have tests for compliance and can tell when someone is not following the diet properly but I’m not clear on what these tests are or how certain it is that a failure on the test necessarily reflects inadequate adherence.

On the other hand their diet is essentially a medical prescription. You can’t expect a treatment to work with half compliance.

They are not without evidence. They are clinicians and hence not doing science but treating patients. But they regularly publish case reports and have had some incredible successes that are shocking enough to make ones interest perk up at this treatment.

(mole person) #248

Of course they do. Both patients had reduced glucose and increased ketones. It’s the same with all the mouse data. But we already knew that decreased glucose and increased ketones correlate with improved cancer outcomes. And as long as glucose is down and ketones are up GKI goes down by definition. So they aren’t showing anything interesting at all unless they demonstrate that GKI is a better predictor of reducing tumor load. This is what they claim in the introduction. But they never even attempt to demonstrate it, and then they claim that there is evidence that GKI can predict cancer load in humans.

Do you see what I’m saying? They’ve shown precisely nothing new.

#249

Thank you Flub. I am still PKD. Nausea is done. I am very sensitive to black tea so have cut down to 2 c per day. Today is the first day of eating 400 g total meat and fat. I did not have my liver today.

I think I am going to be hungry, but time will tell.

I had 170 g ground beef (80/20) with 30 g tallow, and then 125 g chicken with 60 g pork fat. I am handling the rendered fat better.

My :poop: is a bit better (every couple of days), and I am hoping that my IBS symptoms will go away.

#250

Thank you ReneeRC! I try to have 40-50 g liver every day. I eat it frozen, raw in small chunks.

Flub, I LOVE brain. I can eat it every day, and in Australia I can buy 400 g for $4.00. So I eat half of that in one meal which means a meal of brain and fat is $2.

#251
#252

I understand your point of view. The discussion was spiralling. Best to get back to standard programming. :slightly_smiling_face:

#253

75 glucose
2.5 ketones

My glucose tends to stay in the low to mid 70s (with occasional 60s) while my ketones tend to stay in the 2.5 to 3.5 range. I went EIGHT DAYS without having a bm (unheard of for me who has had to plan walks (etc) around bathroom locations) and then went with no problems at all.

I am noticing that my body is changing shape slowly. When doing regular keto I had to workout like crazy to stay in shape but not now. I’m also getting a younger, healthier shape back and at 63 that’s amazing to me. Also, I don’t know how to describe this but I feel more ‘solid’ like my bones are more sturdy now. Most of all though, I love the FREEDOM from food addictions!! Food is a fuel now, not a reward. My ‘reward’ is the better health that I’m seeing and the freedom from meal planning and so on. Loving this!

@Ilana_Rose How are you doing with rendered fats? I’m so excited because I can eat them like candy now with no bathroom issues!

(Edith) #254

So, I know you are eating just 400 grams of meat, fat, and organs a day. What about calcium? Is that something one needs to worry about on PKD?

#255

Hi Edith, the folks at PM would say that everything we need is in the diet itself (organ meats, etc) but I also know that Dr. Saladino (who eats a diet very much like the PKD) advises eggshell powder (or genuine bone meal) to be added to one’s diet for calcium IF following a PKD type of carnivore diet where one doesn’t consume dairy… There are longtime carnivores who take no supplements and seem to do fine so I’m not really sure. Since I’m not having dairy and since eggshell powder is nose-to-tail I thought I’d give it a try.

(mole person) #256

This is the new normal for me. And I quite like it. If it’s much longer it gets uncomfortable but more and more my body it naturally doing it’s business whenever it needs to. It’s still not perfect, but it’s better now then any other time over the last decade. Keto wasn’t good enough as all the fiber messed me up but carnivore is a real blessing in this respect.

I had to OMAD on regular keto to maintain the size I prefer but on carnivore (actually, specifically on PKD as I’ll gain weight if I overeat protein too) I can eat whenever I’m hungry and my weight doesn’t budge. Most days now I eat two meals, sometimes even three. Omad is now less than once a week probably and only because I never got hungry.

I still have to get here…lol. I rewarded myself for a really hard winter camping trip with a chocolate bar last night. Still, it was only 20 grams of carbs for the day (all in the chocolate) and it’s a fairly rare thing.

But the very fact that after ten years of illness and at 52 years of age I’m now doing trips that I never would do before, such as being out in sub zero temperatures for days on end and hauling a heavy sled loaded with the gear that is needed to make that possible, I feel like I’ve been transported back in time to my 30’s.

I seem fine. I’ve not really tested my limits though as I really like eating solid fat and tend to max it out. But whereas before I was opting not to pour all of whatever fat rendered out during cooking over my food, I now seem to want to.

#257

@Ilana_Rose Just wow!! I am so darned excited and happy for you! It sounds like the both of us have had to endure a lot of health issues for a long, long time and when one has been there it makes it so easy to rejoice to see others finally finding much better health!

I’m loving the change in my bowels so much. It’s amazing how our bodies will work to find the right balance. Here I was struggling with diarrhea (and regular keto didn’t help that) and my hubby was the opposite. Both of us are very much improved and we are only 3.5 months into this. :smile:

That brings happy tears to my eyes, Girl! :heart:

I still prefer the solid fats too except with my ham and eggs. It’s soooo yummy to drown the little cast iron frying pan in bacon grease. I guess I have bacon grease for breakfast along with some eggs, ham, brains and liver, lol.

#258

How’s the monitoring going?

(Deborah) #259

Loving this tread and learning a lot. I may join you someday!

(mole person) #260

I only monitor sporadically to make sure that I’m still hitting my targets which I seem to nearly always be doing. Actually, I have to remember to monitor when I’ve been less good, so I’m glad you brought this up.

Over the last three days I’ve “cheated” four times. Twice on my camping trip (a bit of scotch and about an ounce of nuts) and then a significant amount of chocolate the two nights since (half a Lindor 70% bar each time; about 20 grams carbs per).

It’s a good day to measure to see what impact if any it has all had. I just ate my lunch so I’ll wait for my preferred before supper testing time and I’ll report back then.

(Andrea) #261

Slowly trying to transition to PKD. I feel it’s a tough one. I’ve been carnivore on and off for a year or so but I’m going to do a month (?!) of PKD. I’ve added liver to my diet and some extra fat but now need to remove the diary (addicted to HWC and butter), eggs, dark choc and the coffee too. If I could eat 100g of butter a day it’d be easy! I need to go round all my local butchers to try and get fat scraps but hopefully I’ll manage to get enough.

This is left field but what about cacao butter? Could it be a fat to eat?

Oh and I need to stop with the whisky too! Though I feel I need the alcohol to distract from all the “politics” going on at the moment! :slight_smile: