Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet

(Windmill Tilter) #221

I love watching duck hunts. My father-in-law lives in Maine on the edge of tidal marsh where the Saco River meets the Atlantic ocean. Every year around Christmas, at the tail end of the duck hunting season I watch folks placing their decoys and setting up their blinds from the comfort of Stickley settee near the wood-stove.

I don’t pick sides in that timeless contest even though the hunters have gained an advantage in last few hundred years. Actually, I root for the dogs. It always brings a smile to my face to watch a well bred, well trained dog coiled like a spring in anticipation for hours, holding steady even after the report of the gun, and then exploding from the reeds at his masters command. The joyful face of a water dog charging after a fallen duck is one of the purest, most joyful, and simultaneously frightful things I think there is.

Anyway, I loved the wordplay associating medical “quacks” with ducks, and the imagery of the medical industrial complex as duck hunters rising from the reeds. Unexpected and delightful… :+1:

#222

I can feel the calm slow movements. We can’t go round taking aim at central European intelligensia, despite the concentric circle designs on their lab coats. And yet you keep the whistle to your lips.

  • The Chesapeake Bay Retriever vibrates by your side
  • Like a midnight message
  • On the bedside table ring-silenced mobile phone
  • From a friend in a distant time zone.

That allusion ran on a bit long… turned it into a poem.

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Duck hunting is illegal in the state where I live. The Rise of The Planet of the Animal Rights Activists.

#223

I’m finding PKD substitutes for standard ketogenic foods. This is next level food substituting.

In my lunch today, gone is the avocado, in comes the (duck liver*) pate.

*I think all that duck hunting chit-chat has got me triggered.

#224

I started the PKD diet to see if I can normalise my :poop:. It’s been a problem during 5.5 years keto and 1.5 years Carnivore. I am a week in and feel tired and somewhat nauseous. I am eating fried lambs brain (200 g) and lots of pork belly (500-700 g) which is too much food. My ketones have not risen above 0.4 so need to cut to 400 g of fatty meat per day. I don’t think I can stick with it.

(mole person) #225

My husband struggled initially with diarrhea and I didn’t at all. But at the start I had not yet found a way to cook fat that he enjoyed. So while I was eating very high fat he was eating very high protein. As soon as I figured out how to make fat more palatable fir him he began eating a ton of it and he diarrhea resolved immediately.

(mole person) #226

Also, they don’t have the same successes with cancer patients who choose that route. They think that chemo and radiation interfere so much with the effectiveness of their diet as to make their treatment a pointless adjunct.

So, it’s more of a “you can have chemo and/or radiation, or you can try to stop your cancer progression with PKD but you probably can’t have both.”

#227

To start with, I would eat red meat that you genuinely find appealing, with added fat to make the ratio up in the most paletable way possible. Try to avoid rendered fat unless it’s cold (I like eating cold beef tallow from the fridge) and don’t eat too much. You’re definitely eating too much food and you might be eating too much fat, it is a surefire way to make yourself nauseous. I find Its quite hard to judge the percentage of fat: protein in a fatty cut like pork belly. It’s easy to overdo it. Try pairing some leaner meat with added fats to get the ratio and quantity right, and once you’ve got a feel for that you’ll have better experience to judge fattier cuts. Then maybe start introducing brain, unless you really like it already! I felt really nauseous quite a lot when I started, don’t overeat and only eat when you’re genuinely hungry :slight_smile:

#228

@Matamoros I agree with Flub’s post above. I was also under the impression that the 400g per day included the organ meats. Are you eating any liver? The PM folks require that along with brain. I had similar goings on when I started too. It DOES get easier.

#229

@FrankoBear Thank you so much for that interview/podcast with Zsofia Clemens and the Doc. Best one I’ve listened to yet! :+1:

#230

I am becoming a groupy.

I think that Brian did a good job on Peak Human but ZC is a bit skeptical of podcasters and ‘influencers’ and expresses concerns about how people may take and use the information. She seems a bit more relaxed when speaking with a clinician or a researcher.

I just listened to the interview (from 2018) on Biohacker’s Lab. I got even more out of that podcast. I don’t really know the presenter (yet) but he asks the questions I would like answered. But he did not go near the cancer treatment topic.

#231

I think that is an important point. Keto does not cure cancer. If you want the duck hunters to appear on mass to hunt the quacks, just go and say that outside this forum. The PKD diet when strictly controlled down to the seasonings has been shown to stop the progression of cancer as long as the patient maintains the diet. The cool bit about that is that it does offer an opportunity to combine that progression halt with a surgical option.

In an interview (with Dr. Saladino) Dr. Clemens did concede that some people try combining PKD with other modalities such as ketone supplementation, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, chemotherapy and radiotherapy. She termed it ‘defensive medicine’. And pretty much said it did not work.

I’m just reiterating your points @Ilana_Rose that with serious cancer and with early diagnosis Type 1 diabetes Zsofia Clemens makes it clear that the patient pretty much only has one chance and can’t come back to PKD expecting miracles if they go and try other things (which is human nature).

(mole person) #233

As far as I can tell, there’s absolutely no evidence that ketone suplimentation is an effective treatment. In another thread recently we were discussing the science supporting the idea that ketones supplementation could help with cancer repression and after reading the paper I concluded there was zero evidence for this, it was just bad science.

#234

Yes, probably, ketone supplements alone are not. I’m not too knowledgeable on the subject.

I am conflating the work of Dom D’Agostino with Prof Seyfried and using the ketone supplements to potentiate the hyperbaric oxygen therapy. The high blood ketones negate the risk of seizures while inside the treatment unit.

The other idea I’m trying to recall is that using ketones to fuel healthy normal tissue while trying to get the blood glucose down as far as possible to deprive some specific glucose dependent cancer types (not all are).

(mole person) #235

To be honest Paleo-Medicina has my normally strong quack detection system in a bit of a muddle. The evidence is murky, and they are clearly approaching this as clinicians and so can only really be guessing at causes and such. But, I think they are honest agents and their approach is being supported by a fair number of sick people who going carnivore,and approaching PM’s diet, experience remission of serious illness.

Also, quacks normally offer easy answers. This is about as far from that as is imaginable. Basically, for some people like the cancer and T1 diabetics, it’s “do this insanely difficult and restrictive diet and never, ever stop or cheat and you will have remission.”

(mole person) #236

Yes, Dr. Seyfreid wrote a paper on this. But I read it and was horrified at the conclusions he came to from the incredibly weak data. Basically, I’ll never trust a thing that I hear from him after that experience.

I’ll dig up that thread for you that contains the link to the paper and a bit of my analysis of it.

(mole person) #237

I haven’t found the one that I’m thinking about yet. But here is my analysis of a paper of Dom D’Agostino which I also found very lacking in actual evidence supporting what he claims as the conclusions.

Edit: Here it is:

I got my articles confused. The paper that made me distrust Seyfried was the one about the value of the GKI measure.

And here is my analysis:

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/don-quixote-tilts-at-metabolic-windmills/79146/397?u=ilana_rose

#238

Conclusions
The GKIC is a simple tool that can help monitor the efficacy of metabolic therapy in preclinical animal models and in clinical trials for malignant brain cancer and possibly other cancers that express aerobic fermentation.

GKIC = Glucose Ketone Index Calculator

  • Simple tool - Y
  • Help monitor metabolic therapy - Y
  • In models and trial - Y they did that
  • For malignant brain cancers - Y in mice, 2 children and a woman
  • The word ‘possibly’ signifies a possibility and maybe shouldn’t appear in a scientific paper conclusion but does indicate future areas of research.

Seems OK to me. I’ll remain interested to see what they find. It’s been 4 years since that paper. I wonder how the case series has developed?

…

Found this 2018 feasibility study for application of a modified ketogenic diet (MKD) for treatment of some brain cancers on the National Health Service (UK). Spoiler: application of the ketogenic diet in the socialised medicine system is feasible. 6 adult human case studies involved.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01635581.2018.1460677

(mole person) #239

How have they demonstrated this? Where is the implied benifit over glucose and ketones taken seperately, which is the entire point?

Without the ability of statistical analysis this shows nothing. What do you actually see it demonstrating?

You can model all sorts of things, it doesn’t make it real. You need data. They have no usable human data. What they show is two cases with a GKI associated, no possibility of analysis. The third had urine ketones taken so I don’t even begin to understand how they are getting a GKI from that since it’s not representative of actual blood levels at all.

Basically, in this paper they fail to show any human value to GKI.

#240

It is that important step between mouse models to application of a hypothesis in human case studies.

I don’t understand the exact point being made. The benefit is the use of a ratio that delineates a proposed therapeutic level. It’s a starting point. Ratios are methods of combining data measurements in clinically meaningful ways. Like Triglycerides to HDL being an indicator of metabolic syndrome. The benefit is in the effect of one factor counterbalancing the other.

To know what data to collect an experimenter needs a hypothesis. I agree it does not generate usable human data and statistical analysis as it is not numerically strong. But it is at that zone where hypothesis has been generated from the mouse studies and early observations and some data collection in human case studies. It is early work and maybe should not be condemned so readily and recognised as such (as early mathematical tool development work).

The people with cancer (including those on the forums) are seeking hope in their cancer treatment and that’s where the wicket gets sticky because it does transfer to real people and life and death situations.
But that is a complicated social situation from not fully understanding the scientific method. It’s not a reflection of the progression of the science. It may even progress the science to the data analysis level.

Yes. Because the paper is about the creation and the development of a mathematical tool not it’s widespread application. They are just showing how the proposed tool may work, for its future application.

The ‘Glucose Ketone Index’ (GKI) was created to track the zone of metabolic management for brain tumor management.

People who are applying the tool are getting ahead of the science but may be providing the data and anecdotes that helps prove the usefulness of the tool.

(mole person) #241

It’s been nearly a month since I read the paper. I was pretty appalled when I did so but need to reread it to recall exactly what was so bad. My memory suggests that it was the disconnect between hypothesis and conclusion. I will reread the paper later today and try to elucidate more clearly why I found it an example of the worst sort of science.