Newbie! trying not to tie myself in knots about getting keto perfect

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #121

Short answer: yes.

@VirginiaEdie @Shinita
Longer answer:

(Robin) #122

Ivy dear, you need to take a chill pill. Make a daily list of questions in one post. And when you get an answer, don’t follow it up with three more questions. Feels like the forum has been abducted. Give it a rest. Give it a week and don’t sweat the small stuff. You got this.

(Robin) #123

Stop all that testing! Give yourself a week and check again, if you must. Bottom line, if you are under 20 carbs a day, you are doing okay. Constantly tracking ketones and ketosis and even the scale can keep you riled up, when this is an ongoing process. It’s natural. It doesn’t have to be intense or complicated. Take a mental break and a deep breath.

(Laurie) #124

There is probably no reason to avoid exercising. If you were a super athlete or super weight lifter, keto could affect your performance. But for calisthenics, unlikely. Go ahead and exercise. If you feel weird, cut your session short or take a break.

Like you, I love learning and gathering facts. But I think you are getting too hung up on too much info. Keto and carnivore are really quite simple. Maybe don’t sweat the details at this early stage. If you run into a problem, then you can consider tweaking your program and asking about specifics. Good luck!

(Ivy) #125

How to approach doc about keto. Is this something to 'leave alone’so to speak? I was given a 'stop keto, Eat healthy from my last doc. Anyway, new doc, new day, its tomorrow actually.

(Eric) #126

I think it depends on your doctor. Many docs are not well educated on nutrition or diet and often have biases when they hear Keto. If your doc is new to you, you may want to consider feeling them out before opening the topic. Ultimately it’s your call and even if they don’t approve, it’s not their decision. Just like you don’t have to take a medication, just because they suggest it or prescribe it. It’s your body and your decision. Just like those who choose to eat SAD all the time. I know that my Keto WOE is way better than what I was doing before.


I would say it depends on the one in question. I would tell about my woe to any doctor who asks, I can ignore anyone’s opinion just fine if I know what is right. And my body is great at telling me what it likes, it’s glaringly obvious it prefers extreme low-carb.

Yep, it’s our decision, never forget! (I never had a normal doctor myself but I broke bones and had problematic teeth… I typically disagree with doctors and save myself a lot of suffering through that.)

(Kirk Wolak) #128

I always recommend measuring.

But my tests PROVED that 1 cheat MEAL could throw my numbers OFF for the next 5 days. Giving me only 1 good day, maybe 2 in the right direction. Or zero, because I would have to waste so much time back peddling. So 1 day/wk is out of the question for me. 1 per MONTH is still out of the question, because it would cost me a week out of 3.

Every 4-6 months. Probably fine. Until you have spent a few years at your goals!


Kirk Out
PS: If you focus mostly on red meat, until until you are full. Check out MyZeroCarbLife with Kelly Hogan. She gained weight at first, and then lost. But only eats meat. [For myself, a recent test proves I have to avoid chicken, and prior tests proved pork was an issue]

(Ivy) #129

if you only eat meat and no fat, then you wouldnt get enough calories of fat and go over ammonia toxicity, wouldnt you?

What do you mean ‘spending time back pedaling’?

Does bloating occur as a result of cheat meals? I still have significant bloat and it has been awhile since a cheat meal. Im sure it worked that she lost weight that way, since it is zero carb and fat burning works that way.

Since I am not yet fat adapted, I am not able to burn fat, and still aiming for ‘enough calories’ to get fat adapted, which people have been telling me both up your fat to 70%[standard keto diet] , dont up your fat ‘we never told you that’ [messed up, this is a forum all about that], and lower your fats to have higher protein than fat [80-90 gr fat, 150 protein]
So I am confused about that

I am doing 16:8 TMAD and OMAD, and it seems people even fight about THAT. Both doing that and a non-eating schedule work to get fat adapted. Im not sure what the argument is for one over the other?

(Old Baconian) #130

Even more likely is a form of protein poisoning called “rabbit starvation.” Rabbit is a particularly lean meat, and trappers in North America who tried to live off rabbit alone fell prey to this condition, which can be fatal. And apparently, while this is considered a problem of too much protein, it is distinct from ammonia toxicity and also distinct from a lack of essential fatty acids. At least that is what I gather from some recent reading; I don’t know much about this condition otherwise.

And yes, too much carbohydrate can cause some bloating. The figure I have seen is that each gram of glucose causes us to retain three or four grams of water.

As for fat adaptation, it’s not that your muscles are completely unable to metabolise fatty acids, but that they are not as good at it as they will be. And we recommend enough fat to satisfy your hunger, no more, no less. People sometimes talk in specific percentages, but I personally think that’s silly. It’s also more complicated to figure out than “low carbohydrate, reasonable protein, and fat to satiety.”

As for the eating pattern you adopt, people will give conflicting advice because everyone is different. What works for me might not work for you, and vice versa. I try to let my appetite dictate when and how much I eat, but other people do better on a strict eating schedule. And then, someone else will come along and tell us to mix things up, so that our body doesn’t fall into a routine!

(Ivy) #131

Can you define rabbit starvation

(Old Baconian) #132

You’ll have to look it up. All I know is that it is a problem of too much protein and too little fat, discovered when trappers in North America during colonial times tried to live on rabbit meat alone.

(Ivy) #133

Am I bloated more because I did succumb to two cheat meals in my ‘progress’–and may I therefore be bloated the entire time perhaps trying to get fat adapted?

(Ivy) #134

I didnt lower my fat despite people’s insisting here. Nor did I understand why people insisted ‘keto isnt about upping your fats’ for which – IT IS.

(Kirk Wolak) #135

Welcome to reality… There are MANY paths to ketosis and healing yourself. TBH, there are many levers you can pull to move YOUR body in different directions, I’ve written a long post about that…

Since you are new, and you want some guidance, you come here. And, everyone, myself included, are full of advice. And our advice comes from our experiences, and we are all trying to help you get where you are going without making the mistakes we made.

But now you are looking at 100 View Points forming a confusing collage of details. As you expressed in your post… Sorry it is confusing… Know that WE ALL CARE and that’s why…

You are opening the door to a whole new world. May I recommend that you find 1-2 gurus that resonate with you, and follow them. Only stray from them, when their advice does not fit your situation? [Personally, I recommend you find someone who you believe lives a situation close enough to you, and came through the other side (healed themselves) and represents where you want to be!] I will do this exercise aloud, for myself, using 4 of my favorite Keto People.

  1. Dr. Ted Neiman - Actually tweeted me that I could afford to lose another 10lbs based on my height, and to add more protein. He is tall and naturally lean. The proposed weight is probably the healthiest weight I have EVER achieved while wrestling in High School, 3+ decades ago.
    [Not a great fit]

  2. Dr. Boz - A Female doctor, probably good looking, and mostly fit her whole life. Learned all of this to help her mother fight off cancer. (read both her books: Anyway you can, and the Keto Continuum). Really cares about others. Really Geeks out on the science. Really teaches “Flying by Numbers”. Is Quite Human, and shows it. The value of her second book cannot be overstated. If you follow one book this could be it (Keto Continuum). Comes at this and adapts it to her approach to medicine. Blows me away. Very human approach. Her continuum aligns perfectly with my “learned experiences” including “nothing sweet, regardless of calories”…

  3. Dr. Cywes - Here in FL, I’ve seen him. He admits he is a “Fat Guy” with food addiction issues. He has a view of every person who walks in based on how they “probably” came to use food to comfort themselves. (Says: “Most people have an Emotional Toolbox that is Carbs or Cobwebs”, meaning we don’t know how to de-stress). He aligns with me. My Struggle is stress. He realizes the need for a mostly carnivore approach for many. He also believes that Diet Sodas are okay since they do no harm by having no calories. [If I do diet sodas, I go from 1 per day, to 2-4L per day. They are addictive to me, I must avoid them.] Recognizes addictive eating. Admits he struggles. Has good advice for dealing with this… He’s a bariatric surgeon, and I believe specializes in children…

  4. Dr. Ken Berry - In TN, not taking new patients. Was Healthy, then fattened up as a doctor to about the Morbidly obese level. Did what the books said, and it wasn’t working for him. Heartburn, Eczema, Psoriasis, and Rosacea. All went away as he progressed from Paleo to Carnivore. Now he is Carnivore and “fails” to keto / ketovore. PERFECT Fit for me. I’ve met Dr. Berry in person, and his wonderful wife, when she was pregnant with their first child at a Denver Keto Conference (and Carnivore Conference).

  5. Mikhaila Peterson - Catch her story on Rogan. It resonated with my massive inflammation problems, and strange reactions to food so much, that her story moved me to try Carnivore, and to “Wake up” from the haze I was in, and eventually causing me to find everyone else… I’ve met her as well, briefly at the Carnivore Conference… [You think I was looking fore lifes answers, wouldn’t you?]

  6. Dr. Jason Fung - Another Guru. While Never obese, and probably never needing his own level of fasting, he does it to test it with his clients. His business partner (Megan Ramos) was TOFI, and leveraged the methods. Met them both. Dr. Fung is Pure Genius. His early videos on the cause of Obesity being Excess Insulin was Earth Shattering. The speed at which they have cured/revered T2D is AMAZING. I was their client shortly after finding Carnivore. Because I was afraid to do fasting do to Societies Messages (Implanted by Big Ag) that fasting was dangerous, versus perfectly natural. The Obesity Code and Cancer Code are highly recommended reading.

Pick One. Read their material study their approach. practice it WHILE being kind to yourself. Learn how to de-stress in ways OTHER than eating/drinking…

Everyone of them has key points that are correct. And each has a different approach. Because they each have their own life experiences, and they each treat different people. The highest overlap is probably Dr. Boz/Dr. Berry.

I’ve pulled a LOT of information from each of them. Slowly, over time.

Forgive me, but your job right now is to go through the steps and educate yourself. You need to learn about your WHY, and your many questions. Like “Why does it matter if I have a cheat meal?” Dr. Boz answers this with a college study showing that those who had done a 5 day lowcarb program w/free weekend vs strict weekend, lost weight, but lost MUSCLE vs those who did not have the “free/cheat” weekend.

Dr. Cywes understands psychology (and his own), to a degree that at Thanksgiving, his wife makes his plate. He has proven to himself, he cannot be trusted to make good decisions among such a minefield! That takes AMAZING Courage.

I don’t know you well enough. But I would start with Dr. Boz. She covers the female hormone issues and ALL of the basics. IF you did nothing but follow here, you would be successful. So start there.

I included the other reviews to show you the spread of “opnions” out there. And there are a ton more…

BTW, the other reason I love Dr. Boz, is she explains that when you fall off the wagon, you MUST re-assess where you can get back on the continuum at (you don’t get back on where you left off, that tends to lead to more failures, or putting it off until “monday”). Instead, the instant you realize you fell off the wagon, you backup a few steps to what you can EASILY DO.

Also, Megan Ramos (The Fasting Method/Fung) recommends a FAT fast. High Fatty Food consumption for 2-3 days, ONE food, ONE flavor, but as much as you want, to get back on the wagon. I use THIS approach, and it has NEVER failed me. Because it tastes great, and it overwhelms my carb cravings.

Good Luck. Sorry again for the novella…

(Ivy) #136

I am not yet fat adapted, so would need help on starting my intake where anyone includes that.

What do you mean by’Now he is Carnivore and “fails” to keto / ketovore’?

I am lean, so not sure if fasting applies. People have mostly assured me it is OFF-LIMITS to those not fat adapted.

(Jane) #137

You don’t ever need to do extended fasting. People usually fast for 2 reasons (not including religious reasons) - to lose weight/break a stall or repair metabolic damage. Neither applies to you as you are young and healthy and will repair any damage from a SAD diet with a ketogenic diet w/o fasting.

My husband and I do short EF’s because we are both cancer survivors, both had radiation treatments and he had chemo. We fast for autophagy to repair the damage from the cancer treatments and to (hopefully) prevent re-occurance.

(Kirk Wolak) #138

His “Failing” at carnivore is limited to a Keto Treat or two. So, he never falls completely off the wagon to eating PURE Junk food of old. No twinkies or ho-hos. He has stepped up his game to a whole new level.

3 days to get into ketosis. Are you testing your glucose or urine for ketones? Are you there?
Have you done the first 3 days? (Avoid fasting, although you fast when you sleep).

The simplest way to do it. Just eat meat for 3 days. No processed meats. No deli meats, avoid hot-dogs (most contain sugar or additives). Walmart sells a 3lb pack of 1/4lb hamburger patties. I put them on racks, on pans, and bake at 425 for 25-28 minutes, then flip and bake another 5-8 minutes. (I will salt them before cooking, while frozen, and when I turn them).

Eat as much meat as you need to get through the 3 days. Nothing else but water and black coffee. It’s easy. Always COUNT TOTAL carbs, NOT net carbs. But if you eat only real meat,
you don’t have to count anything. Keep at the meat until you are in ketosis… Start noticing the difference in how you feel AFTER you hit ketosis. The first couple of days can suck.

Good Luck.
And grab one of those books. Watch their youtube channels.

(Ivy) #139

keto treat or 2, how often?

(Ivy) #140

Fat fasting is not for those not fat adapted.