Newbie! trying not to tie myself in knots about getting keto perfect

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #141

What’s a “keto treat”?

(Edith) #142

Why should that matter for you, since you are not Ken Berry. What matters to you is you.


Nope, it isn’t. Keto is all about eating low enough carbs, it triggers the changes, ketosis, fat adaptation etc.
Of course we need energy and many people wouldn’t get enough if they just dropped the carbs. But if someone comes from some massive overeating with fat as their major energy source… They may need to eat less fat than before. Many people massively overeat fat on high-carb. Some people eat WAY less calories on keto from the first day because they can get enough fat from their lots of extra fat, they may not need upping fats. There are so many factors, it makes no sense to talk about some general upping fat or not. Eat the amount you need, it doesn’t matter much what the past was like (expect I can’t imagine how someone can make a super drastic jump… it probably should be done gradually for many to avoid nausea. I think).

Of course we can burn fat before fat adaptation as well… How could we not? Maybe it’s hard for certain people, we others do it just fine.

And nope, I never saw people telling you to eat more or less fat on this forum (even if the odd people would say something wrong, there are the others and even the signs of your body). Eat enough. Not too much, not too little. @PaulL himself so well and concisely wrote what to do MANY times, others wrote good advice too, it’s not our fault you have some problem with it.

Why people disagree? Because it’s complex and different things work for different people (and people believe in different things even not related to personal experience).
I am the type who doesn’t say only their way is right. It’s stupid. Some people need this, others that, some folks work with a wide range or need different things at different times…
I am very much aware most people LOVE simple, fixed, clear answers but life isn’t like this. Especially not regarding our eating. There is a lot of experimentation for many of us. We can’t just learn exactly what to do…

And fasting is for people who can do it without force (or need it for some reason, I guess but mostly the previous). Fat adapted or not. Lots of people do EF without problems on high-carb too (if it’s long EF, they go into ketosis though).
You don’t have enough extra fat to expect to fast long (I just think about days) without any problems, no matter your fat adaptation. It’s a bit individual but we do need fat reserves to fast longer without losing much muscle and metabolism speed.

(Old Baconian) #144

The water comes and goes with the glucose. If you eat a lot of carbohydrate one day, you will retain water, then, as the glucose gets depleted again, the water should leave, also. I’ve never heard of a cheat day causing permanent bloat, unless the person never returned to a ketogenic diet.

(Kirk Wolak) #145

how about 3 months after you start. You plan one “meal” where you can have the various things you have missed, or put off…

But it is a dangerous path, that’s why he called it “Failing to Keto”. He was failing to stay carnivore.

First, get your ketosis going and find someone to follow. Some people need the crutches others do better without them. The more training wheels you use now, the more adjustments/removals you will have later…

(Kirk Wolak) #146

I would beg to differ. Utilizing fatty foods is EXACTLY how you GET INTO Ketosis.
Think about it.

You have NEVER done keto before. There are 3 ways (basically)

  1. slowly keep removing carbs until you hit ketosis
  2. eat only meat for 3-5 days until you are there
  3. FAST (don’t eat) for 1-3 days, depending (FASTEST)

eating only meat (if it is ONE type of meat, or one type of fatty food) is effectively fat fasting.
The goal is to trigger the monotonic taste response (food boredom). How many days in a row could you eat hamburger patties before you would ONLY eat them if you were ALMOST starving? [This remove eating for pleasure, eating for comfort, eating because it’s time to eat]… after a while, as you truly get bored with the ONE food.

Meanwhile, you end up in ketosis. And PLEASE, IVY, CONTEXT matters. The context was in “getting back on the wagon” after you had one of the MANY failures to stick to the program that you and everyone else will run into. We all do it. It’s human nature. What makes the successful people successful in this… Is that they approach it as a MARATHON and not a sprint. They forgive themselves and get back on the wagon. WHILE getting back on, your old food addictions will likely be triggered. That is NO TIME to fight hunger. I find Fat Fasting to be INCREDIBLY easy to do. And for day 1, I will do sausage, then switch to hamburger patties and stay there until my cravings are completely gone.

But I am afraid we are all going to confuse you. these are nuanced points. You are still getting your toes wet, so to speak…

(Old Baconian) #147

It is quite true that a ketogenic diet involves eating more fat than if we follow the dietary guidelines. This is inevitable, because we need to get our energy from somewhere, and the only choices are carbohydrate (i.e., glucose) or fat. The body uses protein for energy only in an emergency. The standard government-recommended diet is a very low-fat diet, so of course someone eating a ketogenic diet will have to increase fat to replace the energy lost from avoiding all that carbohydrate.

But firstly, we need a smaller amount of fat to get the same amount of energy, because a gram of fat contains over twice the calories of a gram of carbohydrate or protein. And second, no one sensible recommends stuffing as much fat as possible down our gullet. Fat is not magic. We recommend eating enough fat with meals to satisfy our hunger, whatever that amount may be. If people eat more than that, that is too much fat. Now, you may have heard a different message on other Web sites, but I don’t believe you could have heard it here. My impression is that our message is pretty consistent: keep carb intake very low, eat a reasonable amount of protein, and add enough fat to satisfy hunger.


No, only people who follow the recommended diet (or some other low-fat one).
Typical people doesn’t care about that, just joy or whatever is available and eat tons of fat and carbs alike as I see. Surely many people don’t do that, that’s why it matters where one comes from. 250g carbs and fat a day and they need to lose a lot of fat so have enough reserves and feels fine enough to do it while eating only 150g fat? That’s way less fat that before. It may not be typical but it surely happens to many. Or someone keeps eating their usual fat and protein amount but a bit less carbs (coming from an already low-fat woe) and starts slowly losing…
I surely never had to up my fat, in the contrary. As I came from a very high-fat, seriously overeating woe (way before keto. right before keto I had way less carbs and probably way less fat than on high-carb, it was not hard but not totally pleasant to drop my fat so much. keto didn’t change my fat intake much, it stayed in the usual wide range and fat-loss didn’t happen). I am sure many people ate overly much before keto. That’s what many people do, after all. I see that everywhere. And we don’t want to keep overeating, we want to eat right. So not upping fat is a very normal scenario, I am sure. The majority may up the fat but it can’t be a very rare case not to do it.

But the main thing we should eat the right amount of fat now, whatever it means (it’s obviously not a fixed number or small range, at least not for many/most of us), no matter how we ate before. Some people ate 30g before. Some ate 300g… (And probably some ate way more, 300g sounds nice to me and way, way too easy. I had a fatty past for sure.)

It’s possible more people eat low-fat in the US. We Europeans have some quite fatty traditions and low-fat is far from many of us. But high-carb is what modern eating is about, sadly. So we typically eat high-fat and high-carb.
But people all over the world like their HCHF, maybe very much not healthy, not recommended, but for them, quite tasty and widely available dishes, don’t they…

You are my super patient hero :smiley:

(Carnivore for the win) #149

This :point_up: