New(ish) and Now Struggling

[Martin_Arnold]

I haven’t exceeded 20, often its around 15. However in the UK there is a discrepancy; apparently our food listings have net carbs showing as the carb listing, even though fibre is also listed. This means that what I’m eating is net. this gets weird when you consider Chia, which is supposed to be keto friendly. I have a pack that says 44g carbs (per 100g weight) on top of the greater fibre number (which is why it’s LC friendly, as you may know). Now if the UK food rule is true, that makes Chia a lot less low carb.

So i go by what’s on the package and, unless i’ve screwed up, I’m good. Pretty much all my carbs are from veg. The only exceptions are sausages, but I buy only ones which are low in carb and high in meat value (less rubbish added), and cream, and nuts.

You might be right about the fat. I do struggle to add more.

[Martin_Arnold]

So you had hunger pangs as well?

Did you ever eat a meal that, if it didn’t fill you, made you feel worse for eating it?

If that makes sense.

[Aqua_chonk]

So you had hunger pangs as well?

I had definite hunger signals, yes.

Did you ever eat a meal that, if it didn’t fill you, made you feel worse for eating it?

If that makes sense.

What do you mean by “worse?” Worse how?

The only keto meal that made me feel less than happy was that unfortunate period of learning how much bacon was too much bacon before bed. (Answer: four pieces.)

Every keto meal always fills me and if it doesn’t, I just eat a little more of it. If the fat ratio is too high, I get queasy. If I get too much caffeine in one punch, I get an inflammatory response. I occasionally think I’m craving sugar in the afternoon but it’s usually remedied by adding a few more carbs earlier in the day the next day. If I’m gonna be active, I definitely need to bring the protein. Those are all my keto code fixes. Any symptoms beyond those would have me wondering about allergies or hidden carbs.

[Daisy]

However in the UK there is a discrepancy; apparently our food listings have net carbs showing as the carb listing, even though fibre is also listed.

This is true. You will notice it says Carbohydrates and not Total carbs. They have already deducted the fibre. You can thus work out the total by adding it back again!

Pretty much all my carbs are from veg. The only exceptions are sausages, but I buy only ones which are low in carb and high in meat value (less rubbish added), and cream, and nuts.

I need to watch the carb count when nuts are involved especially if they get ground up for use in things like pizza bases. They are just one of those things that I tend to overeat and eat without thinking. I tend to avoid them for this reason or get them occasionally and just indulge as much as I want. Same goes for cream and some dairy - check the carb count to see how much lactose is in it.

I would switch things up week by week and keep a diary of how you feel. So try higher fat one week and lower protein. Reverse another week. More veg, less veg… You get the picture. Experimentation is key really because what is the perfect combo for one person will not be for the next.

[Martin_Arnold]

Does that mean macros aren’t that helpful? What about calorie deficits?

[Fiorella]

If you struggle to up your fat intake, that could pull you back from being fat adapted. a couple of things that could help is
(1) pour melted butter on everything…like lots of it. You can even add herbs or spice to the melted butter mixture, and pour it all over your beef steak, chicken, fish, pork, meatballs, whatever. Imagine having a gravy boat like image below, next to your plate of food, filled with delicious melted butter, to pour all over your plate.

(2) make a quick hollandaise sauce…so easy, fast and delicious (see recipe below). And it adds a lot of natural good fats to anything you eat.

Ghee Hollandaise Sauce

If you are having a hard time trying to increase your fat content in your meals, Ghee Hollandaise Sauce is very easy to make and can be added to just about anything (meat, fish, vegetables and eggs). It also makes a great dipping sauce for cold meats and raw vegetables. Hollandaise sauce is typically made with melted butter. But, this recipe uses ghee (clarified butter) instead, which results in a much fattier and richer end product. First start with putting raw egg yolk in a bowl. For each …

[Martin_Arnold]

That sounds better than frying with butter as there’s no guarantee all the butter ends up in the food.

I must admit to still having some nagging doubts at all the fat! Even though i see this diet working for so many - in fact i’ve lost weight myself! I was 84.9kg a week ago and today Im 82.8! So there’s something there. It’s just all that dietary orthodoxy saying “don’t do it”

Ok, so, having had a not very filling evening meal, and being somehwat deficit in my fats, what should I do right now? What would you recommend?

[Fiorella]

have some boiled eggs in the fridge ready for your hunger pangs.

I can eat butter with a spoon. I think it is delicious. Does that sound ok to you?

If you are in the kitchen right now, and have access to eggs and butter, I would boil or poach some eggs, make the hollandaise sauce, and have eggs with hollandaise. It’s very fast.

Tomorrow, try the added fat tricks (melted butter or hollandaise sauce), and see if it nips the hunger.

[Fiorella]

oh, by the way, the hollandaise sauce recipe I showed you in the link uses clarified butter…but, no worries if you only have butter at the ready. you can replace clarified butter with just plain butter.

[Martin_Arnold]

I guess I’m asking: is fat on its own satiating? Isn’t protein required to fill and the fat to keep you full for longer

[BillJay]

I must admit to still having some nagging doubts at all the fat!

Given how the dogma of low-fat is beaten into our heads, I think you’d have to be from another solar system to not have some concerns about eating high-fat.

According to @erdoke, and what I can find on the Internet, ketogenesis (making ketones) and gluconeogenesis (making glucose from things such as protein) occur all the time in the liver, but it’s the lack of carbohydrates and relative abundance of the substrates for ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis that determines which one takes place and runs faster and we want ketogenesis to run the fastest!

In simple terms, especially when first adapting to a ketogenic diet, it is extremely important to keep carbohydrates low while providing enough of the material needed for making ketones instead of glucose from what you eat, so this means eating enough protein to sustain lean body mass, but eating plenty of fat so there’s enough fatty acids around for ketogenesis to beat out gluconeogenesis.

You might ask about body fat supplying fatty acids and eating at a caloric deficit, but most people start keto because they haven’t been using body fat effectively and reducing calories during the adaptation process means you have to cut back on protein or fat since carbs are “fixed” at under 20 grams, which ends up not meeting your nutritional needs in some way.

I had to eat lots of fat…to get fat adapted. So, I was in the range of 75% to 90% fat.

After you’re fat-adapted, your body should be able to more readily access your body fat to supply the fatty acids needed for ketogenesis (and energy needs) and then you can likely reduce your intake of fat, but like @Fiorella said, you might need to consume a very high percentage of fat to get through the adaptation process.

[Fiorella]

Fat is a satiating on its own. You don’t need protein for that. In fact, that’s why some people do fat fasting. As in eat nothing but fat (butter, coconut oil, etc) and water or coffee/tea. In fact, that’s the idea behind bulletproof coffee (just coffee with butter and/or coconut oil).

[Donna]

ketogenesis (making ketones) and gluconeogenesis (making glucose from things such as protein) occur all the time in the liver, but it’s the lack of carbohydrates and relative abundance of the substrates for ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis that determines which one takes place and runs faster and we want ketogenesis to run the fastest!

Any time you are unable to eat you will be in ketosis and utilizing GNG. One big example? Sleeping. You can’t eat whilst sleeping, so how does your body get energy? The brain is still quite active during sleep. Well, this is how.

People who are unaware have no clue.

[Donna]

Eat more, particularly fat as others have mentioned. I was starving when I switched to adaption. It happens. Your body is still going “holy crap where’s the glucose?” This will gradually decrease. Just eat, preferably fat.

Also increase electrolytes, including calcium and sodium. This will help feeling unwell.

As for breakfast, my stomach hates it, so I never eat it. I am unsure about woozy after breakfast, though it sounds almost like reactive hypoglycemia. That, too, will adjust in time.

[Donna]

I guess I’m asking: is fat on its own satiating? Isn’t protein required to fill and the fat to keep you full for longer

Protein and fat are the most satiating macronutrients, and fat the most of all. Protein and fat are pretty close, generally, but fat will always increase satiety more than anything else.

Protein mechanically keeps the stomach from emptying, and fat chemically causes satiety. There is a complex mechanism at hand here. This is, in part, why weight loss diets, particularly for surgery, are all very high protein - it literally can’t easily leave the stomach, whereas carbohydrate breezes on by ASAP.

Part of the hunger you are feeling is that, because of this, you are not yet absorbing nutrients. When you eat carbohydrate digestion begins in the mouth, actually. With protein and fat, it cannot be broken down until it reaches the stomach. Since you aren’t using ketones as efficiently yet, likely you are still “full,” but your body is sending chemical messages to eat since there is no glucose. Fat will help with this, somewhat.

[Martin_Arnold]

I don’t think it’s hypoglycemia, that’s usually kicks in later when the sugar runs out. I experienced lows before i cut out the carbs - that’s why i chose this. I checked my BS and it wasn’t that low.

It may be a fasting reaction to eating a large meal or something. I don’t really know.

Or it could be i have a very stupid metabolism.

I keep on top of my electrolytes by supplementing magnesium and adding table salt to water throughout the day. I hopefully get enough potassium in the veg.

When I say woozy, I mean feeling a little sluggish and being ‘aware’ of what my stomach is doing. it’s only really breakfast that’s like this.

I hope i can reach this nirvana of fat adapted as it sounds amazing. I’ve been doing this 4 weeks. Hopefully it won’t take much longer! Roughly how long should it ‘normally’ take (and while you’re at it, can you tell me how long a piece of string is? )

[Donna]

Calcium is an electrolyte, too. If muscle cramps continue, many take a small dose daily.

Fat adaption takes about 2-3 months I think; however you should be in ketosis after 1-2 weeks at most.

If you are sluggish and aware of what your stomach is doing that’s normal. Woozy usually means dizzy so I was not sure.

[Aqua_chonk]

It may be a fasting reaction to eating a large meal or something.

You can get reactive hypoglycemia in response to a large meal. I still do if I’m not careful.

[lauren01]

If butter is hard for you to digest, try coconut oil. If the taste of regular coconut oil is odd, try the refined coconut oil. Coconut oil is normally easier to digest and has an antibacterial effect on “bad bacteria,” but it is not rich in vitamins like most animal fats.

[Martin_Arnold]

When it comes to fats, people say “eat to feel sated”, but i can do that without adding what appears to be enough fat. I’m not sure what to do about that. How do i know how much to add to an otherwise seemingly filling meal to make it really satisfying?