Losing weight on a deficit/surplus?


(KJ) #1

Hey all. First post here. Been Keto since 1Mar 2018, and down 22 pounds so far. Love his way of life!

My question is not about me specifically, I’m just trying to understand a concept. I came here, because I joined a Keto FB group, and nobody there could answer my question. So there are 3 basic recommendations I’ve seen from “coaches” for how to set up your meals and caloric intake for the day.

  1. Calculate or Measure your BMR & TDEE, and set up your caloric intake to be somewhere in the middle. Thus, putting you at a small caloric deficit, where your body will utilize body fat for the rest of what it needs. This makes sense to me.

1A. One question I have on this however, is people say to be careful to not eat too few calories. Why? If my body is trained to use body fat when more energy is needed, then wont a bigger deficit result in more body fat burned?

  1. Then there are those who say that we shouldn’t be worried about calories. If we know our carbs and protein are in acceptable regions, just eat fats until you are satiated. Your body will self regulate. This makes sense too, because I have found that eating high fat, I’m also less hungry and fill up quicker, so I’m probably eating at a calorie deficit anyway, I just don’t have the numbers to prove that. This is basically how I’m eating now. I did method 1 for the first two weeks, now I just make similar meals and let my body regulate how much I eat.

  2. My second, and main question is this. Many coaches and keto-ers say you can still lose weight and body fat while eating at a high caloric surplus. Like 1000 calories over TDEE or more. So, is this true, and can someone explain it to me? If you are taking in so much calories from fat, that you are eating everything your body needs to function, when will you ever tap into stored body fat. Whenever I ask this before, I get the answer of… it’s not CICO, it’s hormones, and insulin controls your weight, not calories. That’s all fine and I understand that, but it doesn’t answer my question. I’d like to understand what is going on in my body to make this happen, if it is true.

Thanks in Advance!
-KJ


Help with calories and macros, please?!
#2

I’m new to this, but if I understand things correctly (someone correct me if I’m wrong):
Let’s say your TDEE is 2000 kcals and you eat to satiety which ends up being an intake of say 3000kcals. When you say you would get more calories than your body “needs to function” you’re right and wrong at the same time. “Needs to function” is the correct part, and it does NOT only include BMR and your daily activity expenditure.
Long-term carbohydrate (and, let’s admit it, often carbs from non-nutritious foods) intake can and does elicit all kinds of inflammatory responses and, inflammation is the root of most health issues, both apparent and hidden.

Keto, keeping insulin low, etc etc optimizes your hormonal regulation. Hormones are involved in pretty much all biochemical processes at the molecular level. “Fixing” your hormones -> reduction of inflammation -> body functions to operate they way it was designed to. That means that it will now efficiently utilize energy not only to sustain your activities, but to optimize your system= cellular nutrient restoration in tissues such as muscle and connective tissue, repletion of marrow elements, oxidation of fatty acids and a much more efficient fuel (which comes along with a bunch of neuroprotective effects on top of the hormonal and weight management benefits) etc. Combine that with some fasting to get rid of damaged/abnormally regulated cells/inflamed tissues through autophagy-mediated nutrient recycling and you’re golden.

If that doesn’t make sense (haven’t done much research yet) or doesnt satisfy you I’ll say this: just try it and see for yourself :slight_smile:

Edit: re: your first question, BMR can increase through 3 mechanisms/ways: 1.weight gain (bigger system to sustain), 2. fasting, There’s plenty of research showing that fasting increases basal metabolic rate, not indefinitely though. Caloric restriction signals your body to drop BMR because, well there’s little food around, shut down all systems that require too much energy and are not absolutely fucking essential.
3. Signal/teach your body to work with more, “theres plenty of fuel for every energy demanding job of yours” whilst taking away the mechanism through which it stores fat (carbs-> insulin/fat storing hormone-).

Check Dr Jason Fung’s website or his book, The obesity code for more on this


(Adam Kirby) #3

The truth is that anyone who thinks you can calculate your daily metabolic requirements is deluded. If you are losing fat you are in negative energy balance, regardless of how much you are consuming. That’s the only way to know if you’re in a deficit, you’re losing body fat. But that doesn’t mean you can always create a deficit by arbitrarily cutting food calories.


(Jay AM) #4

Your questions have been more or less answered by some good articles and discussions that I couldn’t add to so I included the links below.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #5

There are two hypothesese of nutrition, one of which is about energy expenditure, and which we on these forums ridicule as CICO (Calories In, Calories Out). The other hypothesis takes into account hormonal regulation of food partititioning. Keto is based on the latter theory.

The problem with the energy-expenditure hypothesis is that you need to calculate your energy intake and expenditure to within about 20 (kilo)calories a day, if you don’t want to gain (or lose) weight, and this is impossible. To calculate your energy expenditure you need to know, among other things, your basal metabolic rate, which varies according to your food intake. How are you going to figure that? You also need a highly accurate assement of the caloric value of your food, which is also practically impossible to attain.

The hormonal-regulation hypothesis takes into account known science about the effect of carbohydrate on insulin secretion and the effect of serum insulin levels on whether fat is stored or metabolized. There are other hormones involved, but insulin is the key factor, and the effect of sustained high serum insulin levels has been determined to be the cause of metabolic disease (diabetes, cardiovascular disease, obesity, high blood pressure, stroke, gout, dental cavities, Alzheimer’s disease, and certain types of cancer). By allowing insulin levels to drop, a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet has been shown to reverse metabolic disease, allow excess fat to be metabolized, and also switch the body from glucose as a main source of fuel to fatty acids and ketone bodies, particularly beta-hydroxybutyrate.

The key is to keep carbohydrate intake low enough to allow ketosis and fat-adaptation to take place, and to keep fat intake high enough to provide adequate energy to the body. In the presence of insulin, the muscles burn glucose and the fat cells store fat; in its absence, the muscles burn fat and the fat cells are free to release fat for them to burn. If you eat fat to satiety, your body will regulate your appetite to ensure that it has abundant energy, whether that energy comes from your diet or from your store of excess fat. Fat is highly satiating, so people generally find themselves stopping eating at a caloric level, whatever that happens to be, that allows the body to consume its excess fat store. The point is not to count calories, but to allow the body to set its own level. As Dr. Eric Bergman likes to say, “Calories do count—but you shouldn’t count them.”

The business about not eating too few calories comes from the fact that, in the presence of inadequate food intake, the body goes into starvation mode, cutting back on energy expenditures and reducing the basal metabolic rate. By contrast, in the presence of abundant food intake, the body ramps up the metabolic rate and at low insulin levels can even waste energy by burning excess fat for heat. Paradoxically, it’s better to eat nothing than to restrict calories on purpose.

Whlle there are people who have documented eating 3,000 or 5,000 calories a day on a ketogenic diet and still lost weight, I’m not sure it is possible for everyone. Dr. Phinney has found that the usual pattern is that when people with excess fat stores eat fat to satiety, they naturally limit themselves to around 1500 calories, the balance of their energy requirement coming from stored fat. As their excess fat deposits are eliminated, eating fat to satiety automatically raises their caloric intake to compensate, until they reach the point where all their daily energy needs are supplied from their food intake.

So the hormonal-regulation hypothesis says that the nature of the foods we eat has an effect on our body and determines whether each food gets metabolized or turned into fat and stored. The caloric value of each food is of secondary importance to the body’s decision whether to store or metabolize it. The energy-expenditure hypothesis, on the other hand, claims that our total caloric intake is all that matters, regardless of whether those calories take the form of sugar or other carbohydrate, protein, or fat. As simple and obvious as the energy-expenditure hypothesis appears at first glance, the hormonal-regulation hypothesis has far more science to back it up. From my own experience I can testify that taking this science into account in my way of eating has eliminated my metabolic problems and allowed me to lose sixty pounds, without ever going hungry or counting a single calorie.


Calories deficit
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Fat to protein ratio
DIS-couraged
Advice for 2018 newbies with a lot to lose - keep it simple
7+ weeks and im not making progress
(KJ) #6

Thanks Paul


(Candy Lind) #7

When you are NOT YET fat-adapted (not just in ketosis, but fat-adapted, the state in which your body can readily use fat for energy, and if it gets some carb or alcohol, when it’s done processing it, it readily switches back to fat.).

When you are fat-adapted, this works like a charm.

There are multiple experiments and challenges out there where people have done just that. In fact, that’s the basis of @DaveKeto’s (Dave Feldman) cholesterol drop experiment (read about it HERE ). Also look up Jason Whittrock and his 21-day 4000 calorie keto challenge on YouTube. I can’t explain it, but I’m fairly certain that conditions have to be very specific.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

I suspect you’ve got that right. Jason Whittrock and a study participant described in one of Dr. Phinney’s lectures were two of the people I had in mind when writing my previous post. Dr. Phinney describes a study participant who ate 3,000 or 3500 calories by eating fat to satiety, and still lost fat at the same rate as everyone else in the study. If they could do what they did, it certainly indicates that we normal folk clearly don’t need to fear eating fat to satiety

I have really come to trust my body’s satiety signals, and even when I feel compelled to eat a lot of calories I never seem to gain (as long as I don’t eat a lot of carbohydrate, of course). Also, even though I’m not really losing either, at the moment, I notice that my face is still getting thinner and pants are still getting looser, so something good is clearly still going on, despite the stagnant scale.


(Jennifer ) #9

Very well put.


(Rob) #10

The more examples I see, the broader the application of this logic seems to apply. Wittrock is a rare case (thought that may make no difference to the experiment), Feltham is more normal but almost certainly metabolically healthy. Ginger’s recent experiment @KetoInThe.UK extends the bounds of applicability yet further…

I think we may be on to something… I am almost interesting in trying Ginger’s experiment but I really don’t want to do (start) the testing that would make it worth publicizing.


(Vicki Angerstein) #11

I’ve been doing keto/IF a little less than two months and have lost 38 lbs…I read a lot about the dos and don’ts … Right way, wrong way, etc… My approach is to keep it simple, stay focused and whether it’s right or wrong, I have leisure Sundays eating “normal” carbs if I decide I want to… So far this approach has kept me losing weight at a pretty steady pace, and the letting up on Sunday seems to only help! I don’t waver, though, as soon as Monday rolls around I’m right back… Since I do fast for the better part of the day… I’m doing 20/4 …I take an electrolyte powder every day along with raw wheat grass powder…


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #12

If it works for you, more power to you, and don’t let anyone criticize you. (Alas, it wouldn’t work for me, because I have food issues and getting back on Monday would quickly become a problem!)