Loose Skin autophagy vs muscle loss


(Karim Wassef) #121

I think she said 230… more amazing

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #122

Yeah its 230 thankfully! Lmao! But tbh I lost it just being “reasonable”. Between binging (which there was a lot of), I didnt eat any gluten. I ate a good amt of carbs in the form of mostly brown rice. I worked out like a banshee. I watched my sugar, but during a binge I threw all caution to the wind. Didnt eat a heck of a lot of fats except coconut oil and avocado.

But all the carbs and sugar were mostly what helped trigger my binges, which are actually nested in emotional trauma I suffered at a young age.

I needed control over the binging and researched so many positive stories of people with my same issue who regained their life back. So I went Keto and so far its been a God send.

Im even PmSing right now and only have trace amts of sugar cravings. Normally Id be tearing up some gluten free chocolate chip cookies and a caramel macchiato. Im.very hopeful and thankful.

(Jane) #123

Fumble fingered the numbers on my phone this morning. If I go back and correct your comments won’t make sense so I will leave it LOL

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #124

Lmao its all good! It happens to the bestest of us.

(Jane) #125

I agree keto is such a blessing and wish I’d found it decades ago but glad I found it before it was too late to heal the damage of seed oils and processed foods.

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #126

Right! I mean, how can anything that derives from something named Rapeseed (canola oil) be at all good? Lol. I will definitely judge that book by its cover.

Im excited for the journey ahead. I feel I have a balanced expectation. I dont expect a cake walk: no pun intended. Mmmmmm caaaake. Darn PMS. I must be a glutton for punishment because Im over here binge watching The Great British Baking Show. Always good for someone craving sugar lol.

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #127

I watched it before I started keto, thank goodness. Now when I rewatch it I look it at a science experiment or art, not food. It helps…sorta. :blush:

(Scott) #128

Soon BMI will be replaced with body fat % which is much more accurate.

(Karim Wassef) #129

so did you find a good way to measure loose skin or the change in loose skin over time? I’m planning on using a Dexa scan before and after my extended fast but I don’t think I can identify loose skin that way.


Also a late followup to this thread, thought I’d throw in another personal anecdote. I’ve been doing keto/IF for about 6 mo, and am closing in on my weight/body comp goals (and reduced my body weight by almost 25%, so maybe not quite as much as you have) w/o significant loose skin, but this is with not the best skin to start with, as I have some much older stretch marks (which represents permament elastin/collagen fiber breakdown).

While I haven’t noticed much change with the (decades) old stuff, I think that the combination of fasting and strength training (and fasted training) which I started a few months has been very helpful with my progress.

I do regular TRF/IF - usually 16:8-20:4 with occasional longer fasts - 24h+ maybe every two weeks, 48-72h a couple times, maybe once every 6wks? I generally consume a higher level of protein (~0.8g/lb, so 2-3X Fung’s recommendations), but also mostly work out fasted, and also work out even when I’m doing longer fasts.

My general thinking I think is similar to yours - that by working out in combination with fasting, your body will be more apt to use unneeded skin protein to (re)build muscle. You’d also be filling in some of the lost mass if you’re building up your muscle mass goals (focusing on hypertrophy vs strength or endurance in your workouts, I assume) so you don’t overshoot on your skin shrinking (although that’s maybe not your biggest problem in this case). Due to increased GH during extended fasting, muscle preservation, repair, and maybe even growth should be prioritized, which is another tick in favor of this approach.

I did get a +1mo baseline and very recent DXA, and it shows that I did lose a few pounds of LBM (which I assume includes skin, blood/fluids, connective tissue, etc) while I feel subjectively stronger (my workouts have been focused on bodyweight fitness, so sadly I don’t have fixed weight 1RMs, although for newbie lifters CNS adaptations would be just as big confounders for strength I guess).

During my weight reduction, I did make/drink bone broth fairly often. Between the electrolytes/minerals/micros and loads of collagen, I think it’s probably a good thing to be consuming as your body is reshaping itself just to make sure any new skin has everything it needs, but also for skin repair (if the theory is that it’s not just skin cell apoptosis that’s happening, but intra-celullar autophagy w/ tightening of elastin/collagen fibers.

I also did some sauna and hot baths (40C+), which is good for all sorts of things, and didn’t seem to hurt on the skin side of things. And I got a few massages (some physio ones for tweaked muscles which I don’t think had much effect) but also some thai heat/spa-like massages that were super refreshing and did feel like they were really beneficial.

Oh, lastly, something that finally isn’t so anecdotal (can’t be helped though, I don’t think there’s been much study on the subject), but ties into some of the discussion on localization of autophagy: 2016 l-Leucine Increases Skeletal Muscle IGF-1 but Does Not Differentially Increase Akt/mTORC1 Signaling and Serum IGF-1 Compared to Ursolic Acid in Response to Resistance Exercise in Resistance-Trained Men. - this showed that when training and ingesting leucine/ursolic acid, that IGF-1 (anabolism) was increased in skeletal muscle, but not in blood samples (stayed autophagic or catabolic based on akt/MTORC1 signaling, IGF-1) - we’re definitely still very early days in trying to understand how autophagy works/is triggered, but it should be possible to have building of one thing (muscles) and breakdown of other parts - so “feeding” of muscles from other parts of your body is something that is probably happening…

(Door Girl) #131

Chiming in to share my experience with scars. In the first weeks the scar from my broken femur surgical repair started itching like crazy. Now I’m 9 weeks in and have been IF (2MAD with a 4-8 hour eating window usually) for a good part of this naturally. The scar is far less noticeable now, both visually and when I run my hand over that site. I also likely repaired muscular damage below, as physical compromises I’ve had for nearly 10 years went away after intense and painful work in martial arts as that damage was my weakest link by far.

I’m also 22 pounds down in 2 months, and my skin is getting tighter than it was at the start of my journey.

Just my n=1, but wanted to share.

(Raj Seth) #132

Sauna is dry heat.
As for walking outside to get the sauna effect, Houston is not a sauna. Ive never lived there, but I spent 10 yrs in Calcutta (same 98dF/98RH) - it just feels miserable muggy sticky. New Delhi is a Sauna - 105-115dF and desert dry I lived over 10 yrs there too.

(Jane) #133

I was thinking of a steam sauna when I wrote that. Shanghai in the summer is just as bad. Worse, actually since A/C is not near as common

(Raj Seth) #134

Ahhh - Steam Sauna
Around here (NJ, USA) Sauna is always dry, and Steam room is wet.

(Mel Day) #135

Didn’t Richard do the math on how we make glucose from fat and protein in the absence of food? His numbers indicated a certain minimal percentage of protein was up cycled. I believe I’ve heard Jason Fung say this minimal protein comes from excess skin and damaged tissue. He explained that is is cannibalized in the fast to meet the protein requirements.

(Karim Wassef) #136

Here’s my update…

I’ve been fasting and lifting for a week today. I ate 6000 cal OMAD KETO for a full week before and 4500 cal two weeks before that. I wanted to intentionally beef up and even fatten up a bit in preparation for this long multi-week training fast.

I managed to go from 165lbs to 195lbs in a few weeks and I’ve come down to 178lbs in the first fasting week. The difference is that the weight loss is not resulting in the same loose saggy skin I got with keto weight loss. I feel much tighter.

I am taking a Leucine supplement too. Here’s the fasting thread if anyone is interested

(KCKO, KCFO) #137

Is this what you were referring to, Richard’s calculator for how much you can access from your stores? Great blog post.

(Karim Wassef) #138

I really don’t think this formula applies to heavily fat adapted people. If it was, I couldn’t have made it for a week of fasting with a RMR of 2700 calories. My transfer rate isn’t the same as someone who’s been eating a SAD diet. My lipid levels are substantially higher also because I’m moving fat around at a hectic pace.

The idea that the rate of fat transfer is a function of starting metabolism and available fat for ALL individuals seems overly simplistic to me and misses a large number of unique variables.


Hi Tim. If you are into listening to podcasts. This STEM-talk episode covers a bit about branch chain amino acids and discusses leucine.


(Ben ) #140

too many things going on. Sorry