Loose Skin autophagy vs muscle loss


(Karim Wassef) #101

I think it depends on whether you’re creating enough demand to support the supply you’re adding.

In my case, I’m breaking muscle tissue by lifting. For joints, I would guess that the equivalent is moving the joints frequently enough to get the lymphatic system and blood to flow sufficiently to make good use of the protein. This would be stretching, walking, calisthenics, etc…

I’m taking the approach of using proteins as supplements to trigger my body to do the heavy lifting. So I would guess that it’s a matter of how much to take…

It’s like getting the ball rolling from a hilltop but then let gravity do the work… it’s my simple analogy anyway.

(Karim Wassef) #102

I’m settling on 800mg Leucine and 1000mg Carnitine per day. I expect I’ll be at 175lb starting the fast, maybe 180lbs.


Hows ur strength levels compared to omad/if during extended fasts ? and do u take extended pauses or keep them the same between lifts ?

(Boots on? Balls to the wall? Good start.) #104

Apparently if you’re using it to rehab or prevent injury you want to take the collagen about 20mins before working the problem area. I take mine on an empty stomach before I work out in the mornings but I’m not trying to fast & I’m trying to help tendons rather than joints. Chris Masterjohn has some good, short videos on collagen.

(Karim Wassef) #105

I’ve actually seen the same results post-fast compared to what I’d expect without the fast.

That means that, on the EF, with reduced glycogen, I look smaller, flatter and I lift weaker (lower weight, higher rep)…

BUT… the day after I eat, I feel like a beast again… a week later, I’m going heavy and intense… if I were looking at my gains based on the work (rep x weight) on EF vs. IF heavier weights, I’d expect the same effect. In 24hrs of refeeding (keto, not even carb), I can fill up 10lbs of water just based on the insulin reset. I get super thirsty and it’s literally like filling up a tank…

Closest I’d compare it to is like training at high altitude… you push the body under deprivation conditions and that forces it to become super efficient… then you give it resources and it goes Superman on you.

I’ll admit that it’s sometimes very hard to stick to the lifting in EF… not because of the body, but the mind. It messes with you. It tells you that you can’t do it. Ego gets bruised too having to drop the weights… But if you power through it, you get the gains showing up later.


Right, ive always wondered how body has an answer to situations that rarily occur in modern everyday life and how it still is able to perform at good level regardless of the lack of so called “basic needs”. When thinking about multiple days of fasting and then lifting hard i imagine myself collapsing during a deadlift xD. So its nice to hear experiences on this. Did u adapt to this routine slowly or was it possible to just slam it in and switch over during couple of days?

(aka Nick) #107

I’ve only done lifting in the middle of my weekly 85 hour fast once and it was a good experience. My only concern was that it was sub-optimal in terms of building muscle, because it seemed unlikely that autophagy alone could provide enough protein. Since I’m still in the “noob gains” stage, I want to eek out all the muscle I can while it lasts. I imagine that strength increases are comparable to lifting in the fed state, since much of strength is just neurological adaptation, but I wonder if muscle gain is optimal. I wonder if it’s possible that the body can “pause” the repair until adequate amino acids are available? It’s anybody’s guess I suppose. Is there any research on it? Even animal models would be interesting.

You’re definitely pushing the envelope with extended fasting & heavy lifting, which is fascinating to me. I wonder if you could outline what your normal 1 week fast looks like with respect to training frequency, lifts (squat etc), and target reps per exercise.

I’m currently doing Body by Science (Dr. Doug McGuff), and I’m interested in switching things up once I hit a hit a stall and I’m unable to increase weight on the bar. I chose Body by Science because it recommends a 6-7 day rest period between workouts, and I’m currently on a schedule of 3 days feasting (avg 3300kcal), followed by 3 days of fasting. In terms of body recomposition, that was the best I could think of. It seemed like a decent balance of anabolic/catabolic. Last month I lost 27lbs and gained visible muscle, so it seems to be working pretty well. Still though, it would be interesting to add a stronglifts 5x5 workout in the middle of the fast for a few weeks just to see what happens.

(Karim Wassef) #108

I worked it in gradually. I started with IF and OMAD keto every day and daily lifting.

Then I started one day a week fasting (Friday), then expanded it to two days, then three days (Wed, Thurs, Fri). Then I did a full work week (5 days) … did that twice and then did 7 days… then did the 12 day… now I’m eating keto OMAD from Saturday night to Tuesday evening and fast from Tuesday night to Saturday evening.

I schedule the EFs a few times a year. The 12 day fast was Dec 12 to Dec 24 (yes- when everyone else is eating anything, I chose to fast)… eating Christmas Eve was my big feast (keto still). The first big one this year is March 4 to April 28… hopefully with only a few eating interruptions.

The critical trick for me is SALT SALT SALT… pink Himalayan salt, Potassium, Magnesium supplements… and it’s salt in excess. I don’t lift without my bag of salt and big boy of water.

(Karim Wassef) #109

Fasting increases growth hormone and testosterone so it’s actually great for muscle gains. If you’re over 10% bodyfat, you can fast and lift without issue. I actually take a break over the weekend now, and I do different body parts each day with only one thing consistently - chest shoulder Wednesdays. Everything else I switch around for confusion but I never work out a sore muscle group… legs, back, chest, biceps/triceps, core… if I’m sore and don’t feel rested, I’ll do hiit- unless my legs are in pain.

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #110

Slightly late to the party here, but what a great, fascinating thread. Larves it.

I started at 333lbs, I’m now 230lbs, but none of it was lost through Keto. I only just started Keto not even 3 weeks ago, with daily IF 20/4. I’ve IF’d in the past, also 20/4, but not coupled with Keto.

Two things that seemed to have helped tighten loose skin, as well as smooth out cellulite:

Daily Dry Brushing in the proper form. This supposedly helps out our lymph system as well as help circulation and makes your skin look bomb af. I get a lot of compliments just from dry brushing alone. I can attest, as I’ve been dry brushing for over a year, that it makes a big difference for me. I feel that my skin has become tighter in a healthy way, but more elasticky. Most noticeably in my biceps and triceps (bat wings!). I do weight train as well, but not diligently as I should, and still I get a great tightening effect from dry brushing. Inner thighs also have become a lot more elasicky and tight. Lower abs as well (my nightmare spot!).

Second thing I felt really helped loose skin is REAL HIIT workouts (actually getting to 95-100% max verifiably) 2-3 times a week, while in a fasted state, and staying in a fasted state until the following day. I’ve been doing HIIT for a long time now, and it definitely, to me, made a giant difference, probably due to the huge increase in HGH that the body produces during a legit HIIT session and thereafter. It’s a fabulous way to work those super fast twitch muscles, albeit a giant pain in the bawls to do a legit HIIT session; well worth it, though.

HIIT seems to be a term thrown around incorrectly A LOT these days, but I really honestly feel that it has given my skin a revamping. I’ve gotten great results from it not even on Keto. Now I’m pairing it WITH Keto, IF, strength training and I’m very excited to see the results.

I don’t have any studies to back up what I’m saying, it’s just personal experience that I thought I’d throw in there, for whatever it’s worth.

(aka Nick) #111

I’m really interested in dry brushing. Are there any resources that were helpful to you in learning how to do it correctly that you could share?

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #112

Sure thing!! Heres a link that explains it well, from start to finish. https://wellnessmama.com/26717/dry-brushing-skin/

(Bacon is the new bacon) #113

This appears to be very similar to lymphatic massage, which can be very helpful.

(aka Nick) #114

Thanks for that link! :+1::+1::+1:

(Karim Wassef) #115

Welcome to the thread and thanks! I have done both but not consistently. My heart rate during HIIT rises obnoxiously high and takes a long time to recover. Probably means I need to do more of it.

I got the brush but it seems a little “girly” to do… lol. I’ll give it another try.

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #116

Yeah I know what you mean. But you know whats funny? Since Keto, my heartrate goes from 185-190bpm down to 90bpm in less than 5min. Before Keto, it took longer than that.

I had a HIIT session last night. I use a heart rate monitor to make sure im hitting my target heart rate. Last night I finished my session on Jacobs Ladder, I walk over to stretch, I go to check my phone which displays my heart rate via bluetooth, and it was at 90! I thought my batteries were going so I checked my pulse manually. Lo and behold it was right. It was 90. This is great progress that Keto helped and I didnt expect it.

(Karim Wassef) #117

Wow 190?

I won’t push higher than 150… maybe it’s because I’m old, 45yo

It takes me 4 mins to get back to 95 and I still think that’s too long. It’s relative.

(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #118

Yeah generally its 220 minus your age. Mine should be like 185 but its hard to not get to 190 some intervals. I was happy with 5 min because for me, it took way longer before. Im 36 and 230lbs still, so I cant be too unhappy with that.

Ive heard it said that the quickness that youe heart returns to resting rate, the healthier it is. No study I can show to back that up with. But ai only heard lol.

(Karim Wassef) #119

That means I should be at 175… but I’m not going there. :smiley:

I’m a weightlifter and tend to focus on strength. Most of my endurance is based on swimming- flat feet = not a runner.

My resting heart rate is 60 so average. I’ll give it another go during my long fast and report back.

Also, skin is more elastic for younger people who have taken better care/hydration of it. I’m trying to make up for a few decades of misuse…

(Jane) #120

Thank for the link. Decades of abuse from both diet and sun and I need all the help I can get!

293 lbs is amazing? May I ask how you list it since it wasn’t keto?