It seems that the ketogenic diet is making me ill

(Bob M) #43

Heard a conversation with Cate Shanahan (Deep Nutrition), where she thought that PUFAs in your fat cells caused issues, even during fasting. Basically, she said they locked fat in the cells (which also seemingly comports with the Protons theory from Hyperlipid) so you could not access it. You have tons of fat, but can’t access it. If you fast and feel like you have no energy, this could be a cause. She also said that when you can access these, they are like toxins. Burning/using them or replacing them and burning/using them can cause issues. Because of this, she recommended easing into fasting and even low carb.

(Todd Allen) #44

Through blood testing. First I got this panel:
https://www.gdx.net/product/toxic-metals-test-blood

Only lead was reported high. Then I did just a lead test alone to confirm it through:
https://testdirectory.questdiagnostics.com/test/test-detail/599/lead-blood?cc=MASTER

#46

Stop eating farmed fish, feedlot meat and cruciferous plants.

I always develop osteoarthritis in my pelvis if I consume farmed salmon or feedlot meat. Cruciferous plants mess with the thyroid.

(Barbara Schibly) #47

Cruciferous plants don’t “mess with the thyroid” if you cook them. Even light steaming will do the trick.

#48

So your hands and/or feet aren’t cold?

I’m curious though. You didn’t gag on broccoli as a child?

(Barbara Schibly) #49

I doubt that I liked broccoli as a child, but I really don’t recall… Cold hands and feet are not a particularly good indicator of thyroid function.

#50

Exactly my point. My hands and feet were only cold when I was consuming broccoli. Then I remembered my traumatic childhood broccoli gagging and decided to test this hypothesis that states cruciferous plants are goitrogenic. My hands and feet became warm within days of removing them.

#51

Postural hypotension could be due to the blood pressure medications being at too high a dose.

n=1 blood pressure monitoring at home might be a good idea to gather information to help a primary care doctor make decisions on lowering doses.

__

@Eppy

The hypertension medications would need readjusting with the CoQ10. The CoQ10 is a supplement of benefit due to its intrinsic disruption by the statin. The actual medication that needed readjustment is the medication for hypertension (lower the dose).

Which takes us to the foundation of following a nutritionally therapeutic way of eating (your choice = anything other the standard advice, e.g. vegetarian, vegan, keto in its many forms, paleo, carnivore). That foundation is combining it with deprescription, or, getting off the medications.

So if CoQ10 reduced your blood pressure, the opportunity is to keep reducing blood pressure medication until you don’t need to take it.

#52

Once in the bloodstream, lead is primarily distributed among three compartments - blood, mineralizing tissue, and soft tissues. The bones and teeth of adults contain more than 95% of total lead in the body.

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9

I was wondering @brownfat Todd, as you lost weight, did you concurrently increase activity and do more weight bearing exercise… resulting in bone remodelling?

#53

[I’m editing this post 2 weeks later. Not deleting it. Not rewriting it. I’m leaving the original text but adding new notes in the square brackets]

Regarding the video linked in post #12

Plant-based diet ‘poster boy’ for prevention but, surprisingly, ends up with a carotid artery plaque. [Here I had made a presumption about the significance of dietary aspects. But the atherosclerosis in this doctor’s case is probably affected more strongly by genetics than I understood at the time of making the initial post]

So, if a self proclaimed ‘poster boy’ and expert on the standard of care ends up with injury to his carotid artery and plaque formation despite living all his recommendations for 2 decades before diagnosis, would that not make one question whether what he professes is the correct way to avoid what he got?

He does have some genetics that may predispose him to heart problems including heart attack. But he had a series of genetics that were also beneficial.[I’ve bolded this bit now because it is more significant than I first thought]

He had hypertension and insulin resistance on his plant-based diet. So he added salmon and and niacin as a supplement but was worried about his cholesterol. He took an ACE-inhibitor for his high blood pressure. Then started very low dose Crestor statin.

Out of all these confounders he chooses the statin as the thing that improved his carotid artery intima thickness score. He could have just as easily said his diet change created the change by eating salmon. This does not equate to statins being good for people [in general. But the statin in his case with the underlying genetic predisposition for atherosclerotic plaque formation probably was a good therapeutic choice to lower his LDL and hence lower his small LDL]

When he is pointing at the ‘hot liquid’ plaque it also demonstrates that the endothelium, as part of the tunica intima layer of the artery is cracked. Dr. Brewer indicates that the contact of the inflammatory fluid of the plaque with the blood stream causes a blood clot to form. He is partly right. A plaque usually forms at the site of primary injury to the artery epithelium. Where he is not accurate is that he seems to consider the root cause of the heart disease problem is the plaque and then the clot. But (in this video) leaves out, leaves unsaid, how the plaque forms or why the blood clot forms, to subsequently break off and cause a blockage (thromboembolism) of an important artery in the heart or brain causing tissue death and person death.

It could be said that the plaque and the blood clot are part of the same healing process. That the cracks in the arterial endothelial layer (and deeper) occur, then the blood clots and plaque and associated white cell immune system remodelling are the response to the arterial lining cracks.

The questions should be: So why does the artery crack at that dangerous place (the bifurcation of the carotid artery) or at the branch points of the arteries that supply the heart muscle? He partly answers that in his case by saying he had high blood pressure. That’s a mechanical reason. The other reason for damage to the endothelial layer is Dr. Brewer’s other extant problem of insulin resistance and the inferred elevated blood insulin and elevated blood sugars.[and the other reason was he was genetically predisposed]

He, Dr. Brewer, was a poster boy for plant-based diet prevention of heart disease and he has/had dangerous arteriosclerosis. [Dr. Brewer was smart enough to investigate his own health and change things when needed.]

One part of the transcript that was interesting is below.

I find his presentation confusing and possibly contradictory. But it’s what was presented. I’ll have a look around his videos to see what he has to say about arterial plaque formation.

At this stage I find the thoughts and science presented by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick a bit more logical (an explanation in 67 parts). Even if he does come across as a bit narky and over it, in a Scottish sort of way.

One thing positive about statins outside of their cholesterol lowering aim is that they may improve nitric oxide production in the endothelial lining of arteries and that could benefit the risk reduction in cardiovascular disease. But that is not what they are being sold on.

Repeating Dr. Brewer’s qualifications and describing his climb up an academic ladder is an appeal to authority logic fallacy.

[It seems that the ketogenic diet is making me ill]

#54

Dear David
It sounds like your symptoms are serious and I would suggest going for a total general examination of your whole body. I dont think anybody here can do that for you and suggestions of different diets for this is like a pin in the haystack kind of logic. It might not be the diet at all, but some underlying illness you have that has now surfaced and is giving you symptoms. I`ll give you an example of a kind of analogy. A friend of mine wanted to travel to Asia and was told she needed all sorts of vaccinations. One of them was against Hepatitis. She had an unusual reaction to it in that she turned yellow. This was a sign for her doctor to examine her from head to toe, and they found pancreatic cancer in its earliest stages. She had an operation, chemo, and survived- been 7 years since then. How lucky it was for her body to give her that sign so early, so the cancer could be removed before sending out mets. What I am saying is that it could be something totally different and keto is only a vehicle for this to express itself now. I do not think that eating keto is suddenly the cause for so much discomfort if you tolerated it so well before, and any kind of cloudy urine should be examined BY A DOCTOR right away!!! It could simply be that your body is not tolerating keto right now for a very different, underlying reason!!
And in addition- your cytopenia could very possibly be only one symptom of a larger picture of autoimmune disease. There are autoimmune illnesses which present with more than one symptom, and you arthritic pains along with kidney problems could be part of a larger complex. Get that checked too. Not sure a haematologist is the right address. An autoimmune specialist might be better, because blood problems might only by one piece of the puzzle of a larger autoimmune illness- like add kidney and joint problems to the picture and a different diagnosis might be found.

(Todd Allen) #55

Yes I have been increasing exercise, especially strength training. I can’t say how much bone remodeling has been going on but my DEXA scans have been showing accelerating bone loss. At first it was minor and my bone density was quite high for my body weight. I figured some bone loss was likely typical for rapid weight loss, since I had just lost 25% of my body weight I could probably afford to lose some bone too. On my last DEXA despite gaining lean mass while still losing fat my previous rate of bone loss which was already becoming alarming had doubled again. I’ve also had rapidly falling blood cell counts which are now below the reference range so it is getting concerning. Frustrating that I’ve been unable so far to find any medical professional with any experience treating chronic lead poisoning in adults.

(David Epstein) #56

Many thanks for all your replies. Since I stopped Keto my pain in the lower back went instantly. Urinating a lot a night stopped, and the cloudy urine stopped. Thus I conclude that I was very dehydrated, yet I drank at least 1 to 2 liters a day. I do take multi-vitamins, but my body can’t tolerate these keto mineral pills. I was also feeling quite weak which is the opposite of what most people say that they get loads of energy. Right from the beginning of me doing Keto I never felt energetic. Well I’ve already put weight on (haven’t weighed my self yet) as my belt size has increased (not happy with). So I’m going to have to go on a low-carb diet. I’ll slowly work my way into the low carb diet. I’m eating healthy which I always have. I do actually feel a lot better. I slowly work out a diet plan for myself. From what I’ve read and spoken to people in the ‘health world’ Keto diets are just for starting out, getting rid of excess weight quickly but not for long term. 4 years ago I tried the Blood Sugar Diet

by Michael Mosley, but he says only do it for 8-12 weeks max.
So I think I’ll go back and forth from low-carb to BSD over the next year or two.Even though I did find Keto effective I don’t think my body can handle it.

Many thanks for your replies.

(Edith) #57

Understood. Everyone has to find what works for them. Good luck!

#58

I’ve missed some posts in this thread so apologies if this was already covered, but lots of water will deplete your electrolytes, and we need more electrolytes on keto. Were you careful to get enough sodium? It’s the sodium that seems to keep the other levels (potassium, magnesium) in balance. Low electrolytes = low energy and other issues.

#59

Diabetes UK does:

(Bunny) #60

Looking at that entire post it looks to me like a genetic predisposition (alleles) of some one who claims to be vegetarian but was eating some serious sugar (cake, donuts, cookies etc.) for a long-time?

Not enough vitamin K in the diet?

It would have been easier to just eat some grass fed meat and butter to get some real K? With some cold pressed Cod liver oil would have even been better? Westin Price style…lol

#61

Bunny I can’t remember was it the 9p21 allele homozygous that Dr. Brewer has? I think it was.

It does take the heat off him a bit for having an atherosclerotic plaque and does justify the use of a statin as it is therapeutic in that specific case. Not generally therapeutic for everyone with a high LDL count.

It makes more sense as I’ve been listening to the Dr. Agaston interview by Ivor Cummins:

#62

Oxalate toxicity manifest as oxalate dumping. Classic symptoms of increased urinating, cloudy urine and back pain.

Did @Eppy detail his ketogenic foods? Were they high in: spinach, almonds, nut butters, nut flours, chard, dark chocolate, black or green tea, spices (I think they were mentioned). Then a weight loss plateau, did that eating change? Possibly from high to low oxalate.

Moving to carnivore diet to treat rheumatoid arthritis is an idea but may need a strong caveat of care and awareness of oxalate toxicity. The joint symptoms in oxalate dumping can feel a lot like those described in peripheral diabetic neuropathy and those described in early rheumatoid arthritis.

(Bunny) #63

Noticing the stated increased “risk” does not mean that it is inevitable.

It just blows me away people will risk there life to be defined as a something (status as a vegetarian) to prove that definition as something that’s better?

‘If you don’t eat animals you will be the golden standard of health?’

Yeah right?

Eat animal crackers instead…lol