Is there anything in these claims?

[akirby83]

Again, unless you want to look like a bodybuilder, they have limited usefulness as gurus.

Yep, I don’t even have much interest in getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger, I try to get stronger and if that results in increase muscle mass all the better!

[Madeleine]

PHD is definitely not your standard higher-carb recommendation, and I think that the Jaminet research and theories seem to be quite sound. Whether it’s the ideal ratios for someone who is seriously insulin resistant is another question - I would vote no! - but I think their science is legit and probably worth a read for someone who wants to do keto for the long long term. They’re not the only folks in the ancestral world - which is generally very friendly to ketogenic eating - suggesting that some time burning starches is probably good for our metabolic flexibility and health. But again, in the cases of serious IR and/or T2D, I think most of this goes out the window.

[Disclaimer - I haven’t looked at their recent work so I don’t know what they’ve done since that book.
Disclaimer #2 there’s a fellow who follows PHD and has written many cookbooks, which my husband LOVES and uses often, and so I have the association of delicious meals with PHD, which may have left me somewhat biased…]

[PaulL]

If you don’t want to eat sugar, don’t eat it. There is no minimum daily requirement, so you won’t die if you never eat sugar again for the rest of your life (of course, you’re going to die sometime, but not from avoiding sugar!). Likewise, there is no known carbohydrate-deficiency disease. And many, many traditional societies, before they were pushed into adopting a Western-style diet, considered fruits and vegetables to be fit foods for human beings only during times of famine.

[jellybelly]

The article I posted has some citations. Some I don’t really understand. The first one seems to indicate that fasting lowers glucose production quite significantly.

Has anyone with a greater expertise on theese subjects had a look? I’d be interested

[Saphire]

In Russia during the War that’s all they had to eat was potatos and bread people lived longer (mortality rate) eating rationed potatos and bread (freshly milled and baked within 48 hours of being milled) because that is all their was to eat and we’re healthier at that time than any time in the history of Russia even up to this day they not as healthy or lived as long as that point in time

This would make me think a high carb diet is the ideal diet. Again with the usual provisos about correlation and causation. My understanding is that it may not have been the bread and potatoes but the general lack of food. They were eating a fast mimicking diet. That is one theory as to why the Okinowans live so long, they were literally starving for years during the war as they had less access to food than the rest of Japan

As someone else noted, HC in the absence of even moderate fat has a different physiological effect than HC with some fat. I believe if you were to eat a potato without any fat and during a time when you consume no other food, you would not produce insulin as insulin needs the fat as a trigger

[atomicspacebunny]

Thought this was interesting concerning starches:

The effects of alanine, glucose and starch ingestion on the ketosis produced by exercise and by starvation. “… 1. Several investigators have found that the development of post-exercise ketosis is not counteracted by glucose ingestion. Post-exercise ketosis might therefore have more in common with diabetic ketoacidosis than with starvation ketosis.…” “…2. The effects of ingesting 100 g of glucose, alanine or starch were therefore studied in subjects rendered hyperketonaemic by prolonged running on a low carbohydrate diet, or by 65 h of starvation. These substances were also ingested by normal post-prandial subjects. …” “…3. The runners developed post-exercise ketosis (1.81 +/- S.D. 0.81 mmol/l), which was counteracted by alanine and glucose, but only minimally by starch. …”

Cahill cycle: The Cahill cycle, also known as the alanine cycle or glucose-alanine cycle, is the series of reactions in which amino groups and carbons from muscle are transported to the liver.[1]

[Baytowvin]

I would love to eat sweet potato and quinoa but for me they are a gateway food so it really does not matter

I don’t think Ive ever had a desire to eat quinoa, but I agree with your point.

[Capnbob]

of course, you’re going to die sometime, but not from avoiding sugar!)

I’m sorry but this is a blatant lie!! I have a friend who was walking down the street and saw he was coming up to Bob’s 24Hr Donuts, so to avoid sugar temptation he decided to cross the street… and was mown down by an errant Uber!!

Death by sugar avoidance is a thing!!

[Saphire]

I don’t think Ive ever had a desire to eat quinoa

honestly neither do I but compared to not eating carbs it is something

[roho42]

How is that not eating carbs? 39 grams per serving and only 9 grams protein.

[CandyLindTX]

However, body builders aren’t necessarily the pinnacle of metabolic health. Running around with single digit percentage body fat requires severe discipline and metabolic manipulation.

I know of one that has gone keto and seems to be able to maintain single digit BF and doesn’t carb load. I was completely gobsmacked by Jason Wittrock’s 21-day 4000-calorie challenge, in which he actually ended up losing a bit of weight and at least part of a percent body fat (when he was under 7 to begin with, I believe). He did this only a few weeks before a big BB competition, too. He heard about someone else doing something similar at a keto event, and decided he wanted to know what would happen if he consumed that many calories. The excess fat apparently was simply flushed away.

[Saphire]

How is that not eating carbs? 39 grams per serving and only 9 grams protein

Of course they are!
Not sure you read the entire thread. I mentioned sweet potatoes and quinoa as examples of safe starches advocated by the perfect health diet people who claim you need some glucose. My point was that even these safe starches for me are gateway carbs and are foods that I avoid. Then @Baytowvin made a joke about eating quinoa being unappealing to Baytowvin under all circumstances. That was what I was answering

[DiMo]

Exactly. How do you lessen your tolerance to heroin? I can tell you it’s not by doing MORE heroin…

Yes!

[Wishbone]

And the super fit banana stuffing health guru of The Biggest Loser, just had a massive heart attack!

[Wishbone]

Wouldn’t you say it was more of a lack of processed carbs, candy etc?
100 years ago veg had way more nutrients in it than it does today, and wheat way more fiber. Modern crops are bred for higher sugar content to appeal to the consumer.

[roho42]

I did (although I did miss the specific mention of quinoa) but when you said comparing eating quinoa (carbs) vs not eating carbs (quinoa) I was confused.

[brownfat]

I’ve resumed eating sweet potatoes, quinoa and other starchy foods such as legumes as well as some less keto friendly fruits though not every day and in rather modest amounts. I definitely can’t eat as much of these as suggested in the “perfect health” diet and meet my goals for blood glucose and ketones. At this point I have little idea whether incorporating these foods is better or worse for my health, so far any effects are pretty subtle. My main reason for doing so is my wife likes them a lot. I do most of the food prep and my wife has been super supportive of my shift to keto with little to no complaints of the endless keto meals I’ve been serving even tolerating my experiments like last night’s salad with fairly bloody 135F sous vide beef heart and herbed butter we ate last night. But I’m a sucker for her abundant praise when I include a little of the non-keto things she likes. And I’m enjoying the variety and dish/recipe possibilities achievable with small amounts of non-keto foods.

[PaulL]

I guess how loose we can be depends on how metabolically messed-up we are. Dr. Phinney and Dr. Volek define “low-carb” as being under 100-150 g a day, and that does get some of us into ketosis, while others of us need to be more restrictive.

Also, @Saphire has a point about gateway foods. As a sugar addict, I do have to be careful, quite apart from any metabolic issues. I binged on an entire cauliflower one night early on. The result was that I greatly exceeded my carb limit and felt awful, plus it exacerbated my cravings for sugar.

But if you can eat starches without a problem, go for it. More power to you!