Inconsistent success on omad lchf


(Dave Corbett) #21

I’m not the one that said CICO was the key - Someone else shoved that into the conversation.

Here is what I said;

Remember that the fat macro is a limit, not a goal. If you aren’t losing weight, dial back the number of fat calories.

So if you are eating Keto and NOT losing weight, that would be the first place I’d look to troubleshoot.

Dr Phinney and I agree on this point. You eat to satiety - NOT to an artificial fat-calorie goal. It’s Keto’s magical power of helping you limit your calories. You feel full and stop eating.

I feel like I’m fighting a hive-mind here. Should I gain back those 45 pounds and then lose them in the approved manner? I find it hilarious people are telling me I can’t lose weight the way I lost it.

Put down your pitchforks and torches folks. You don’t need to cast out the blasphemer.


What I think I hear you saying as your core message is that food is not unlimited, even glorious fat. :slight_smile: In terms of weight loss, it is my experience in the LCHF/keto world that some people DO overeat, and it DOES interfere with their weight loss. I’ve seen it too many times to dismiss it. When those particular people reign in their keto treats, fatty coffees, fat bombs, etc., and begin to focus on well-formulated, nutrient-dense plates, that elusive weight loss often begins in earnest. Why does this happen to some? For one, I think some people do not have a developed, internal sense of what “fat/food to satiety” actually feels like. Two, I think some people genuinely fear being the slightest bit hungry, so every sensation of hunger drives them to the kitchen to snack between meals, which is often not needed. Mind you, I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it is a reality for some.

(Dave Corbett) #23


That’s exactly what I’m saying. And I learned by my own mistakes and experience. I was doing the BPC and fat-bombs in the beginning. Then I found that I needed those less and less.

And that’s exactly what I tell Keto beginners - “Enjoy yourself and don’t worry about calories in the beginning. Eventually you re-tune your body and you won’t need those. Your body will tell you when to stop eating - listen to it”.

Indeed. I had to flip this switch in my own brain. I remember the day - I walked PAST the vending machine and didn’t grab some almonds. Yes, they are a keto-legal snack and I had enough room in my carb-budget to eat them. But I found myself thinking “This is what a metabolic change feels like. This is the feeling of by body switching gears.” The feeling soon passed and I eventually gave up snacks between meals. Now I’m not tempted between meals and get as many hours of fat-burning as possible.

I also agree that everyone is different and people need to experiment a little to find what works for them.
And maybe we shouldn’t pile on to people who have a different method of success.

Thanks for reading all this with an open mind and not trying to enforce dogma.

(Richard Morris) #24

How much insulin you make determines whether fat cells accumulate or release energy, and whether energy consuming cells burn that released energy. So insulin determines how much energy is freely available.

Studies have shown that humans dynamically change their resting energy expenditure by up to 800 kCal based on how much energy is freely available.

And the other side of this coin is when you increase insulin, people store more energy even when they eat less - as we saw in that study on intensive insulin therapy

The explanation of this apparent contravention of the law of thermodynamics, is that our total energy budget (TDEE) consists of 3 buckets … the basal metabolic rate (BMR) which is the bottom line energy we must have to keep us breathing, the resting energy expenditure (REE) which is your optional energy budget, and then the exercise energy expenditure which is the energy you are going to spend doing things like running on treadmills.

That middle bit, the resting energy expenditure goes up and down based on how much energy is available. This is why people can lose weight without reducing calories coming in - because in a low insulin environment, if you are overweight you suddenly have an abundance of energy. Calories are just pouring out being spent on all sorts of optional uses - like raising body temperature to improve your immune function.

A ketogenic diet doesn’t only work because it makes you eat less energy, it also works because it takes the hand-brakes of consumption of energy.

(Dave Corbett) #25

Thanks Richard!

Again, all I was suggesting was that if weight loss has stopped, a little adjustment of fat calories may help.

We’re all different and need to experiment a bit to find what works for ourselves.

(Adam Kirby) #26

Fat to satiety is a good starting point, and critical in the beginning of the diet, but judging by the number of folks who can’t lose weight eating fat to satiety I don’t think it guarantees body fat loss.

(Bacon for the Win) #27

no, that’s not the point of IF. But you believe what you choose to believe, and whatever works for you is great. I’m not interested in a pissing contest with you. KCKO, I’m out.

(Richard Morris) #28

I don’t disagree with you … Not only do we each have different metabolism, we also have different metabolisms during our personal journeys.

So in the early days when you have 100 lbs of energy that you can suddenly use for the first time in a few decades … it doesn’t matter what you eat, you can chain chug bulletproof coffees by the dozen and you will likely still lose a lot of weight.

At some point your adipose tissue (body fat) becomes insulin sensitive and then the calculus changes. If your fasting insulin is low (like below 6) then you’ll descend on a gentle glide path to your ideal body weight. If your fasting insulin is above the inhibition of lipolysis (14 mIU/l or greater) then satiety will be determined by immediate energy needs without reference to drawing down adipose tissue. You will plateau higher than your ideal body weight.

At that point you have 2 options … you can cut back the calories you eat short of satiety, or you can eat to satiety and keep calm and keto on.

If you cut intake you draw down not only body fat but also your REE and maintenance becomes harder, and continual weight loss become gradually more improbable. It’s a game of diminishing returns and regain.

If you keep calm and keto on then more time at lower levels of insulin will compound and as insulin drops, so will stored energy (body fat). Depending on how deranged that time could take years.

(Dave Corbett) #29

I’m still trying to work out just how deranged my metabolism is.

I managed to get my A1C down from 13.5 to 4.9 in 8 months - thanks mostly to your inspiration!
(I’m officially off Metformin too and blood-pressure medicine too)

I imagine my body will be continually making adjustments after a drastic change like that.

In the meantime I will indeed keep calm and keto on!

(Olivia) #30

I think the intention of IF might not be a calorie deficit; however, it is a handy byproduct, which helps in weight loss. There is a difference in saying calories count and CICO. (I lost all of my weight with calorie counting and have kept all of it off for now six years).

(Ethan) #31

@richard, This is very interesting and consistent with what I have experienced. My solution is multiple extended fasting sessions per month. I do two 5-day fasts each month. I find that I continue to lose weight with each fast, and then maintain it during the feasting session as that new weight level becomes the new set point. For example, I started this month off at 223 pounds. After my first 5-day fast, I was at 220 pounds. Then I ate for 8 days. My weight initially increased back to 223 pounds in the first 3 days, but immediately dropped back to 220 and held there. I started the next fast (which I am in now). I expect my weight to drop to my 12/1/2017 goal of 217 pounds when I end the fast. That will go up after I eat back to the previous set point of 220, but quickly drop back to 217 by 12/1. This is how I have been progressing. My fasting insulin was measured at 12.6 last month.

(Adam Kirby) #32

IF with low carb is the kind of calorie deficit that is effective… long periods between meals coupled with decreased hunger. To me calorie intake is only of tertiary importance after meal composition and timing. It matters, but not if the other two aren’t done right.

(Richard Morris) #33

Jason Fung explained the difference between caloric restriction and intermittent fasting in a recent OCP using a reductio ad absurdum to make his point.

Imagine you and your twin are going to eat 1200 calories.

You spread it out during the day, so every hour you eat another 50 calories. What happens for you is every hour you give your insulin a nudge … new food coming in … need some insulin to use it, and that turns off access to body fat. Normally a few hours after eating a meal your insulin drops … but you are eating every hour. So you never access body fat … the total energy in your circulation for the day was 1200 … so now your body has to budget for that and furlough multiple optional processes, it’s going to be a pretty awful day for you. Your are likely to feel lethargic and hungry all day.

What happened to your twin is he also ate 1200 calories but did it all in one meal. He also nudged his insulin, probably more than you did, but a few hours after eating it’s low again and now he is able to use body fat for energy. He might get an additional 1200 calories from body fat for the day. Not only is he going to weight less on the scale, he’s going to have had an awesome day with a budget of 2400 calories of energy.

Our bodies apparently treat not enough different than they treat none at all.

(Jamie Hemken) #34

Dave, your personal experience and weight loss are invaluable and I do find that my “I’m full” meter is off so I need to be more aware of what satiety feels like in contrast to gut busting. Thank you for the word of encouragement and advice.

I also appreciate the science behind your comments, Mike. I do feel lost about why I’m even trying omad in addition to Keto and the twin analogy reminds me of the benefits. Most days, I can fast without any real discomfort, but yesterday I just couldn’t shake the hunger. I think I need to honor my body and feed it Keto friendly food when it asks, and fast when my body tells me it’s strong enough to do so.

Above all, I am so thankful to have such a knowledgeable and informed community right at my fingertips. It is truly a blessing to have support and a respectful discourse about our health.

(Damon Chance) #35

This is a good plan. OMAD really does help keep your insulin down for longer periods so it is very beneficial. I find that I can still put away a LOT of calories in one meal so I still have to make sure I’m eating to satiety and sometimes I have to tell myself to stop because I can eat for the sake of eating at times. I do Alternate Day Fasting a lot but sometimes if I feel hungry I break the fast and start over. Do what you can when you can.

(KCKO, KCFO) #36

In the Mixing it up with Megan podcast, she speaks about using OMAD successfully once you have reached your goal weight. She and Jason do not recommend doing it everyday while healing and being in weight loss mode.

(Jamie Hemken) #37

Where can I find more information about Megan. I looked online but didn’t find anything linkable

(KCKO, KCFO) #38 Is the website for Dr. Fung’s program which she pretty much manages. Also they have the Obesity Code podcast now.

You can listen to the podcast I was referring to here:


I have to agree, at least for some of us. I did an experiment early this year in which I ate lots of fat to satiety for a couple of weeks and ended up at around 3000+ calories, and well over 130 grams fat/day. I gained six pounds in 2 weeks and I would have thought it was water weight except that it took forever to get them off again.

Whatever the physiology, I do think some people can eat lots and lots of fat, but not all of us can.

(VLC.MD) #40

I hope one day research understands the differences in people’s metabolism. Why are some people naturally fat or skinny ?