Ilana's beef binge buster thread

(mole person) #182

@kaclp Ribeyes are a favorite on this protocol.

I only eat beef, salt, and water on this protocol (and one cup of black coffee). Beef absolutely includes beef fat though. I don’t tend to use tallow (beef “lard”) because too much liquid fats nauseates me. I prefer to just cook beef fat that I get from my butcher along with my meats. How much I add depends on how fatty the cut is. The very fattiest ribeyes are perfect on their own, but mostly I find that I add fat to them. I also make bone broth and have it daily.

I keep a very high fat to protein ratio by weight. 2 grams of fat for every protein gram. This, for me is vital. I’m barely in ketosis on carnivore if I’m eating a lot of protein and when I’m not in ketosis a lot of my NSVs go out the window. I also get hungrier and lose my grip on weight control.

I keep my protein around 60 grams these days but don’t sweat it if I hit up to 80 on occasion. More than that and I’ll suffer immediately.

That’s the point of it. No fasting. It’s essentially a beef fast. You eat only what you actually need because it’s just meat and salt and as good as that can be when you’re hungry there is a hard stop on appetite for it. I’m not even really doing IF. I wake pretty early, around 5am and usually have my first meal by 8:30 am. I eat to satiety and have no compulsion for more until 5 pm.

What are you trying to trigger?

(Kristen Ann) #183

Thanks for the protocol. I book-marked your slow cooking method for beef fat you posted a while ago and plan to try that. I didn’t realize the fat:protein ratio was weight. Good to know. I try to keep my protein moderate too because it’s the only way I can lose weight. I’m conviced when I eat more than 40 grams of protein a meal I have an insulin response.

I’m trying to trigger my vascular and autoimmune symptoms because I’m going to the Mayo Clinic in 2 weeks. I’ve been off keto since Oct 4th trying to undo the healing keto has done:

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/reversing-the-good-keto-has-done-nitric-oxide-endothelial-dysfunction/93895

(Mazzy ) #184

So interesting! I totally get that too! I hadn’t attributed it to dairy, but I’ve just realised that since I have cut out dairy they have gone!

I’ve also noticed something similar gets hold of me food-wise when I’m around close family. I wonder if there’s something going on that has its roots in childhood sibling rivalry over food (some kind of evolutionary/genetic disposition to ensure your genes get more resources than your sibling’s)?

(mole person) #185

I lean towards a strong evolutionary pressure involving the sharing of food. We are a social species that bond and care for our young for absolutely ever. I think there is probably a deeply seated instinct to prepare foods for each other and eat together and it’s not properly satisfied when we fly solo with our own diet.

(Diana) #186

You helped me with my last stall which worked great (eliminating dairy) but I’m now in the final stretch and can’t seem to budge past the 110 mark. I’m trying to lose the last inch of stubborn thigh fat. I’ve read through the thread and I can’t commit to full on carnivore. I’m a foodie and love veggies, plus I fear my weekend drinks would not be compliant anyway (I generally have about 2 drinks on Saturday and Sunday). I guess my confusion comes into play here, since my goal is to lean out, should I not be eating leaner proteins to force my body to use its stored fat? I know this thread was focused on carnivore and that seemed to work well even consuming higher fats, but what would your recommendation be for standard keto? Lower fat protein? Cut calories further (currently at 1200 and doing omad 5 times a week). I feel my pitfalls are similar to others, I do really well all week but then go over on calories on the weekends (albeit all keto food), I just consume more food as I’m with friends and make a keto treat (usually mug brownie). How do I get over this hump to force my body again to use its stored fat?

(mole person) #187

No, the reason is this. You need to give your body a source of fuel. Fat is the least insulinogenic of the three macronutrients. It’s the eating of fat that allows us to be in ketosis without real hunger or the threat of metabolic slowdown. If you cut fat then you’ll have to increase protein or carbohydrates to keep from going hungry. Both of these are more insulinogenic than fats.

That being said, I think that there are better and worse ways of getting those fats. Especially when you’re going after the last few pounds.

If you can give me a detailed account of how and what you eat I may be better able to identify possible problem areas.

What’s happened to you right now is that you hit your “Phinney Weight” for the current way that you are eating. Basically your insulin is in balance with your fat storage. Hence you are no longer losing weight. We need to figure out another change or two to your diet that will lower your “Phinney weight” another 5 lb.

Trust me, figuring out how to get those last five pounds of vanity weight off of myself took the better part of a year when I did it.

(Diana) #188

my weekday diet is pretty clean. I’ll attach an excerpt from MyFitnessPal where I track everything. I’m good at accurately tracking everything except nuts as I don’t weigh them. So overall my weekday food consists of breaking my fast with either plain chicken bone broth or the bone broth with a piece of boiled chicken. It was suggested to break a fast with a lean protein and then eat about an hour later the full meal (something to do with how your cells open up and thus you don’t want fat going in right away). My main meal consists of usually either a salad base (just greens), or sautéed spinach or kale. Alongside I will eat either a chicken breast with 2 slices bacon, one fried egg and half avocado, or make a tuna salad (tuna, one tablespoon avo mayo, one hard boiled egg, 1 celery stick and quarter cup onions). Post lunch I always have about 2 tablespoons of either nuts (walnuts or pecans) or in shell pumpkin seeds (FYI I saw you have a problem with regularity and this does the trick for me). Sometimes I mix it up and have a hamburger or leftover steak etc. overall weekdays are good from a macro perspective and calories but don’t end up in any weight loss. Then comes Friday and the weekend…that’s my downfall. I’m still meeting the keto macros but my calories go over closer to 1700-1800 as I always have 2 drinks and a keto treat. (For example this past weekend it was a keto brownie, or ice made coconut milk ice cream without any sweetener). Perhaps what I need is just some tough love as I’m clearly messing this all up on the weekends. I guess I was hoping that I could use the same approach of when I started keto and still have “keto” treats and lose weight.
I want to be able to enjoy some items but want to also push myself with these last stubborn pounds.

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The macros are usually about 65% fat, 30 protein and 5 carb as of this week. Weeks prior it was closer to 70/20/10 (carb). But net carbs were never above 20.

(mole person) #189

That’s a pretty clean looking keto diet but I do see a few things that affected my own weight loss.

Your OMAD is very spread out. Ideally you want only a single insulin hit in your whole day. I never heard this idea about fat cells opening up.

Basically by eating over a longer period of time you are extending the time during the day where insulin is elevated and putting fat into your cells instead of taking it out. For OMAD you want to sit down and eat 100% of your food is one sitting. That includes the nuts and chocolate.

Normally I’d say get rid of the nuts and chocolate but if you really are only eating two tablespoons and 1 single piece then let’s leave them for now.

Your diet looks very, very lean to me. You want your protein sources to be as fatty as possible. Tuna and chicken breasts should be really rare choices. You’re much better of with the fattiest rib eye steak that you can find. Also, try to get your fats from your meat rather then over your vegetables.

And stay away from the dairy. Butter too!

As for your weekends I think you know they are a problem. Of course you want to be able to enjoy a drink or two from time to time. But it sounds like you are setting yourself back each and every weekend. Why not go two weeks without and see if it moves the needle. Or taper down to drinking once a week if the former choice seems too onerous.

My best recommendation would be to go a month with only fatty meat. Not as a permanent solution but to see where taking all the carbs and vegetable oils out of your diet would take you. But I very much understand you’re not wanting to do this.

Barring that, perhaps try getting very close to zero carb for a month. A lot of people keep carbs at 5-10 total grams a day. Try limiting your vegetables for a while and getting almost all of your calories from meat and fats. Try to target a very high fat macro. My own diet is over 80% fat.
When I do this my weight stays low and I am even able to eat two and sometimes three times a day.

Let me know what you try and how it gets on!

Good luck!

(Diana) #190

Thank you, I’m going to give it a try. Specifically increasing the meat fat content, and reducing carbs further and reducing some of the treats. As for the fasting thing. I heard this via Thomas Delauer on YouTube. He has a whole segment on fasting and fasting for women specifically. But agreed perhaps this additional insulin spike is not necessary.

(Diana) #191

Alright, I’ve had some time to digest, I’ve defrosted a RibEye (12 oz) for lunch (and have some left over chicken liver from yesterday). My plan is to eat that as my one meal with a side of asparagus, hopefully this will be enough to keep me full……but before I break my fast I had a few follow up questions. I get I screw up on weekends, but on the weekdays I would expect to see some fluctuation. If I eat a fatty steak, as mentioned my fear is my body will eat that first and not my own body fat. But I know you mentioned in your prior reply that this is the least insulinogenic and thus more important.

The weekends are a wash I get that, and I am going to fix it starting this weekend. I’m already mentally preparing that dinner Friday will be a fatty steak again with side of asparagus (I’ll eat only half the portion of that) since we are going out with friends, and 2 glasses champagne (lowest carb of all). That should put my daily carb intake at about 8 grams. I will not have any treat….I….will…not….

Honestly, I‘m just scared. As I’ve mentioned losing even .1 pound seems impossible that I’m afraid if I eat this fat I’ll gain weight and then it’s going to take a mountain of effort to get back to where I am now. I’ve read this thread and your other pertaining to carnivore and I see your progress and when I read it I just think how lucky you are to lose it so quickly even after a binge.

So I’m just looking for more information as to how it’s going to be possible that my body will still use its own fat, is it because the calories of the steak will suppress my appetite and thus I won’t reach the full 1200 calories I normally eat? I’m sorry, I feel like I sound dense as I do read these threads but there are so many contradicting statements, I think I mentioned I’ve been watching a lot of Thomas DeLauer on youtube and some of Dr. Eric Berg on youtube and even they contradict. Although I’ve been leaning to the advice of Thomas as to me it seems he’s perhaps more focused to the community trying to lose the last bit of weight, where it seems Dr. Berg is focused truly on the more overweight. The links to Thomas’ videos (in case you’re interested) that speak to the break fast rules and losing the last bit of weight “Top 3 mistakes people make when breaking a fast” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vZpe-yrZLY

Then Dr. Berg says not to eat more than 6 oz of protein per meal….but won’t eating my ribeye exceed that?

Dr. Berg ‘losing that last 10 pounds’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcEWTbh-wVY&t=107s

I do intense exercise about 3 days a week (primarily in form of Zumba and weight training once a week).

Sorry, confused, I want to do this right and I know perhaps the best way to find out is to experiment on myself but again there is the fear or gaining weight….so looking for some advice/reassurance. I’m also hoping to hold myself accountable this way.

(mole person) #192

These are all good questions. I am out right now but will answer them fully later today.

(mole person) #193

I’m going to take this in a couple of parts. First I want to address this:

This is a common failing point on the ketogenic diet. The ketogenic diet is not like calorie restriction diets where you can cheat one day and double down the next day to “recover” the calorie balance. This diet is not about calories at all really. It’s about altering your metabolic state to turn your body into a better fat burning machine.

But every single time you go off plan you are undoing the effect and this effect takes time to come back.

I go off plan whenever I visit family. I’ve measured ketones and blood glucose carefully to see how long it takes my body to fully get back into it’s best fat burning state. It’s a full eight days. And it’s four days before I see any recovery at all. So imagine what’s going on if you are overeating and eating the wrong things every weekend.

Also, it’s important to remember that carbs, although important, are not the only factors affecting this metabolic state. Drinking alcohol is going to turn off fat burning regardless of its carbohydrate content for exactly the same reason that eating sugar does.

Alcohol is toxic to the blood. It requires that the body burns it for fuel before it will burn anything else. As long as you are drinking your body must put all the other macronutrients you consume into storage until the blood alcohol has been fully metabolized by your liver.

This means fat is getting stored in the fat cells. Carbohydrates are being stored as liver and muscle glycogen that then becomes a fuel source that had to be emptied before fat will be tapped again. Some of the carbohydrates will even be turned to fat through a process called de novo lipogenesis. And the same thing happens to protein. Whatever excess isn’t being used for the body’s protein requirement will in turn go to glycogen storage or fat.

I’m not trying to tell you not to have a couple of drinks. I’m just trying to explain how it might be a real source of a problem so that you can decide how much and how often you want to indulge.

I myself love a scotch from time to time. But I probably only drink about ten days a year and I expect that when I do my weight will jump for a few days after.

Have you considered tracking blood glucose and ketones? That can give you remarkable feedback and help you nail down your problem areas.

(Diana) #194

When I first started keto, I tracked glucose and ketones daily. Then I got a finger felon (deep infection) and I assume it was bc of the constant finger pricking. Just speculating, even though I’m meticulous about using alcohol etc. long story short, after that fun event, I now rarely check. I’ve been meaning to test. I just ate dinner but will check in am.

I get what you’re saying above, I’ll need to figure out a way to drink less to prevent this constant reset, or not eat when I’m drinking (for at least 2-3 hrs until it’s burned off).

I’ve started today and ate liver for lunch (made with avocado oil), then just now had a 10 oz ribeye, with 5 spears asparagus made on avo oil. I then ate 2 servings of chicharones. Somehow fitness pal is saying I’m only 63% fat. I guess the liver was lean. Unfortunately as well it’s saying I’m well past my calories at 1500.

(mole person) #195

I have at least another couple of posts planned. One will address your concerns about fat consumption and a second will address why you should stop worrying so much about a calorie target. I will try to do both by tomorrow but until then try not to worry about either.

(mole person) #196

This is only true under the single condition of overeating. But for the most part it’s actually the opposite that is true.

First of all any macro that you overeat will lead to your body not burning it’s own fat. But which macros you eat affects how much you can eat without reaching this point. By keeping insulin low with a higher fat proportion of your diet you are increasing the number of total calories you burn in a day.

By eating lean meat instead of fatty meat you would be increasing your insulin load and reducing the amount of food you have to eat to lose weight. This goes against the point of a ketogenic diet and how it’s meant to work. The whole point is to hack your diet to keep insulin low and fat moving freely in and out of your cells.

Now I understand where you are coming from with this question. People come to keto and think it’s a free for all fat fest. There is nothing beneficial about pouring fat in your coffee, eating sticks of butter or popping fat bombs.

Once you are overconsuming calories for your particular current macro balance you will gain weight regardless of what that macro balance is.

The trick is not to add a bunch of fat to your diet but to replace other macros calories with fat.

It’s two things. Yes, it will suppress your appetite somewhat, but more importantly by eating that super fatty steak you are changing how many calories your body will burn in a day. So if before you were maintaining weight at 1200 calories you will now be maintaining at a much higher intake and losing at 1200.

First of all you’re OMADing. That number is ridiculous for one meal. But I can’t stress this enough, you don’t want to overdo protein. That’s why getting the fattiest meats is super important. Get your calories as much as possible from fat, and trust me, animal fat is better. I’m carnivore and I don’t have more than 75 grams of protein a day. Almost all my calories come from fat, over 80%. This leave me under 108 lbs 100% of the time. My body weight doesn’t vary while I eat this way and I’m able to eat as often and as much as I want. I never count calories.

(Diana) #197

First and foremost, thank you for your time and attention. It really means a lot to have someone to talk to and that’s also an expert in this. Truly thank you, I know I’m asking a lot of questions and perhaps silly ones so I very much appreciate you talking me through this. Believe me, I want a lot of the videos on YouTube, I read the forums but I’m still somehow not comprehending some of these aspects as a lot of them focus on leaner meats and consuming 6-8 cups of vegetables (which I just don’t understand how that’s even possible and for you to still maintain the macros).

Okay, so first some exciting news. I am down 1 pound since yesterday!!! I ate the ribeye for dinner as noted, I did have asparagus in the olive oil/ghee mix. I’m surprised to see this as it did say my overall daily macro was only 63% fat. I didn’t even work out last night like I normally do! We are making headway! This is a new low!

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How do I make sure I’m not overeating? I tend to have a big appetite, I know the rule is eat to satiety but that is hard for me as I feel like I could eat more and more. Perhaps it’s because I’m making my food too tasty (I’ve seen you talk about that as well and that perhaps I need to eliminate everything but salt but I’m afraid then I’d just be turned off and wouldn’t eat it at all as it’s bland)……this is why I still track calories as I want to make sure I’m not overeating by accident/boredom, thinking I haven’t eaten enough etc. I know this is hard, but I need to have some parameter…

With the rib eye, I did have trouble eating the fat chunks, there is something about the texture I just can’t do….instead I dipped some of the pieces in the leftover juices of the pan (I guess the rendered fat) so perhaps that helped. For me it’s a bit easier to eat the liquid fat on the meat….like now I have no problem with fatty meat (like beef chuck, or I have a packet of ground beef which is 45% fat (got it from US wellness meats as I try to consume grass fed and grass finished beef). So would that be okay? I guess I’m asking if I make like a shredded beef and the fat is just immersed is that okay. Or would I still be consuming too much protein? Could you help me and review some proposed meal plan options below?
• Here is what I’m thinking, make a ‘chili’ with the 45% fat ground beef, add some chili powder, a quarter of an onion and 2 tablespoons of low carb tomato paste. I’d consume that with some bone broth when eating. Would that be okay as a start?
• Alternative idea, short ribs cooked with some tomato paste, a garlic clove, and bone broth to tenderize the meat, salt. (This should make a low carb ragu…). I feel if the fat is dissolved I may be able to eat it easier.

In either option, I need to add some low carb veg, half avocado, kale, or spinach or something as I need to ensure I don’t undo all the progress I’ve made with my IBS. I’ve been super regular with my prior diet although it was causing weight loss stalls. I need to have some fiber as I’m afraid of my gut biome just wrecking…

Just looking for some advice on how to handle next week.

Last question, what advice would you have for tonight since i do plan on having 1 drink (keto friendly). Still keep the same format of higher fat even though fat burning will be interrupted while my body processes the 1 drink? Or should I eat less, or different fat (like a fish) to accommodate just tonight? My fear is keeping the higher fat meal will cause me to go over in some way since I’m going to stop fat burning for a few hours (I think it would only be a few hours….).

(mole person) #198

You’re very welcome. To be honest there would be nothing that could make me happier than to help you both to lose the weight and to understand why and under what circumstances this diet works best.

Actually, all of your questions are excellent. We tell people on the one hand to eat mostly fat but they will also hear “if you eat too much fat your body won’t burn its own”. This sounds like a very confusing mixed message and most people end up either listening to the first or to the second but not to both. If you only do the first you get all the happy fat bomb and butter eaters who often fail to lose much weight and will generally plateau quickly. But if you limit fat by eating lean then you will end up restricting calories so much that you might as well just be going hungry on a regular weight loss diet. The trick to doing both is to replace the carb and lean calories with all those extra fats. That gives you high fat without high calories.

Sorry, i haven’t got to some of your questions but my husband is wanting to go out. I’ll get to them before this evening.

Can you tell me what you want to eat and drink tonight? It might help me tailor advice.

(Diana) #199

Regarding tonight I plan to have one vodka soda. I am not planning to eat prior, as I’m currently not hungry, if I do get hungry prior to dinner I may have a beef jerky stick. So I’m trying to figure out what would be best to eat around since I won’t be burning fat while the alcohol is in my system. We are going to a steakhouse so options would be ribeye, or I could do salmon, or any of the standards. My side is going to be asparagus for the fiber. I know the logical option would be ribeye…

And yes I think this whole time what’s been confusing me is the “eat more fat” but then the statements of “you want to use your own fat” that’s when I started restricting the fats as I was trying to get my body to pull from my own stores.

(mole person) #200

Is that one vodka tonic your entire “cheat” for the weekend? If so, just enjoy it. Salmon is fine if you prefer it. It’s a good fatty fish. Skin on is better though as are fattier cuts. If you can, and if you don’t feel too weird doing it, ask for the chef to pick you a fatty piece. Also, don’t eat past satiety. You don’t need to feel stuffed just sated.

If you are interested in really getting into the weeds with me about tailoring your diet it might be really helpful to start testing ketones and glucose again. Would you be willing to test both daily for a while right before your OMAD meal?

By the way, I forgot to congratulate you on your weight loss. What a good start!

More to come shortly.

(mole person) #201

Alright, I’ve been re-reading the thread to find the parts that I think I’ve missed touching on.

It’s very clear, as I think you know, that the weekends are probably your biggest problem. You’re eating more on weekends, you are having drinks, and you are eating treats, which even though keto, will have a higher impact on insulin.
Are your keto brownies made with almond flour? Unlike many here, I do not believe this is a good food for people struggling with weight loss.

What do you think of commiting to one month, 30 days without any keto treats? That includes the chocolate. I’m not meaning to deprive you permanently of treats but this is the best way to start figuring out your plateau and how to break it.