I think extended fasting is bad

[AmerHerodotus]

I looked up" Music to Code by" and that doesn’t seem to be the music in The Obesity Code Podcast. Wish I could find it.

[Baytowvin]

@carl’s music is now called Music to Flow By, but I’m not sure he has the Obesity Code music there. I think he wrote it for the podcast.

[BaconIsLifBaconIsLov]

You claim having low calorie diet slows body down but not eating anything will not? Mind you,I mean in two months time,not 3 days.

[kib]

I googled “phases of starvation” because I thought it might be more medically researched than intentional fasting. Basically, stages 1 and 2 are what we think of as beneficial fasting - going into ketosis, using primarily fat as fuel - and sound harmless (I know there are benefits, but I didn’t expect to come across them in this treatise, and I didn’t.) In phase 3 when all non-essential fat is gone, things go south in a hurry. I have heard people doing long fasts say you can tell, that “true hunger” is like nothing you’ve ever experienced, people will desperately eat almost anything once they’re on the verge of phase 3. Clearly, the timing of this is dependent on the speed of metabolism and the starting amount of non-essential fat.

“The third phase of starvation starts when a person’s fat reserves are depleted and there is a switch to proteins as the major source of the person’s energy. Muscles, the largest source of protein in the body, are quickly depleted. At the end of this phase, proteins - essential for cellular functions, are broken down and cell function degenerates.”

What Happens When We Starve? Phases of Starvation

[RobC]

I think the answer for that is “it depends”.

If there is still more fat to burn, you’ll keep burning it and your body will keep itself in good shape to hunt.

If the amount of fat left to burn gets to low - you’ll slow down because you are about to die.

Here is another way to think about it - if the fast length had anything to do with it (versus the amount of fat you still have) then how did the fast-record-holding-gentleman go from 456 to 180 pounds in 382 days?

You are putting forward the idea that after 2 months - things just must have been going wrong - because 2 months is a long time without protein or any calories.

If there was some sort of (even small) problematic situation developing because of fasting at the two month mark how could this gentleman have continued all the way to 382 days?

[AmerHerodotus]

He wrote it specifically for the Podcast? This is very sad. Oh well, I’ll just keep listening to the Obesity episodes. Educational anyways.

[OldDoug]

I think chasing autophagy just for the sake autophagy is not good thinking. We want autophagy to prevent muscle mass loss, I believe you will all agree with me that by eating protein you preserve more muscle mass than by not eating protein in two month time even despite the protein shutting down autophagy for some time.

I wish I knew what all happens after two months’ fasting. That really is a long fast.

I don’t think we really know how much muscle is lost after that long of a fast…

I do think that for some of us, the beneficial changes in body weight and hormonal issues that long fasts achieve are well worth it, even at the cost of some muscle mass, if it occurs. There would, of course, be a point at which the loss could be “too much,” but again - it always seems like what are presented are people’s fears of muscle loss, rather than actual studies or case histories.

Wanting autophagy for its own sake - I really have to disagree here. This is a huge area that is only now opening up - the good effects of autophagy, which may be profound for Alzheimer’s Disease and some forms of cancer, to mention only two things. I am not saying this argues for fasting for 2 months - everything I’ve read points to fasts of 3 days or longer being good for really getting increased autophagy going.

We really need much more research on autophagy in humans!

[OldDoug]

I googled “phases of starvation” because I thought it might be more medically researched than intentional fasting. Basically, stages 1 and 2 are what we think of as beneficial fasting - going into ketosis, using primarily fat as fuel - and sound harmless (I know there are benefits, but I didn’t expect to come across them in this treatise, and I didn’t.) In phase 3 when all non-essential fat is gone, things go south in a hurry. I have heard people doing long fasts say you can tell, that “true hunger” is like nothing you’ve ever experienced, people will desperately eat almost anything once they’re on the verge of phase 3. Clearly, the timing of this is dependent on the speed of metabolism and the starting amount of non-essential fat.

Nice post, Karen. That is an important point, about the changes after non-essential fat is gone. It’s a whole different world, then. I’ve fasted as long as 10 days, and never got close to that “true hunger.” Prior to the true energy crisis at that point, the body is amazingly efficient at preservation. Even with respect to excretion - for example the kidneys can go from normal or increased ‘elimination’ mode into “recycling” mode when levels of the substance in question declines - there is a portion of the kidneys dedicated to doing just that.

[BaconIsLifBaconIsLov]

I think muscle loss starts sooner than 2 months,probably at day 6,its just initially low,that is why fasting up to 2 weeks might seem like there is no muscle losps,there probably is,its just not enough to be noticable.

You ask how its possible that Angus went on 1 year fast,I want to point out that I never claimed 1 year fast is not possible (if your physique is like snorlax).What I claimed is that its not ideal.Small amount of essential protein and omega fats would help prevent muscle loss while not slowing weightloss in the long run.

[J_A-M]

Why not go on extreme cut rather than fast? 50g of protein and 11grams of essential fat is like 300 calories,you will keep far more muscle mass,your hormones and metabolism wont decrease as much,at the end you probably lose just as much weight or even more.

This actually has a name or many names, it’s called an eating disorder. Anorexia nervosa being a common one that would eat such low calories. And, you don’t retain muscle mass, protect your hormones, your metabolism decreases significantly. Of course you’ll lose weight while restricting calories to this level. That’s why most people with an eating disorder try to do it. That’s why they starve instead of being able to use spare body fat as fuel. They become smaller, weak, fatigued, sick, their hormones change, they can become depressed, suicidal, irrational. It’s not an “extreme cut.” What you’re calling a cut is based on calories in, calories out. Fasting, on the other hand, is not calorie restricting when done properly and when done by someone who has bodyfat to spare. I’m not sure why you think this 300 calorie plan is an any way healthy but feel free to show us the science.

[Matamoros]

Hi OD,
I use fasting to help keep an aggressive cancer at bay. Thank goodness for the Champions in the medical, nutrition and research industries. When I first realised I might have cancer, I specifically looked for alternative treatments that medical doctors and other professionals were espousing.
I reckoned if they were willing to take significant risks to their professional careers to bring us information about nutrition and fasting that I was in for a chance.

I have done 4 EFs more than 7 days and monthly fasts of 2-4 days for the past 18 months. In fact I am on Day 3 of my current fast.

I do fast for health reasons. I am a bit thin for my height and frame so as a result don’t fast if I start feeling ill or if my weight drops beyond a certain point.

Any questions are good questions and there is still a lot to be learned about autophagy.

So far for me, so good. I enjoy fasting.

Here is my tribute the the Champions, especially Christine Cronau, Dr Fung, Dr Seyfried and my Naturopath in the early days.

Breakfast of Champions

[kib]

This was truly inspiring, thank you so much. Did you use fasting in conjunction with traditional cancer treatment, or all by itself?

[BaconIsLifBaconIsLov]

I dont understand how you come up with comparing fat person on 2 month 300 calorie weightloss atempt to chronic mental eating disorded underweight person.

2 months no food = perfectly ok
2 months 50g protein + 10g fat = eating disorded?

"And, you don’t retain muscle mass, protect your hormones, your metabolism decreases significantly. " You claim eating minimum essential macronutrients will not help retain muscle,protect hormones and keep metabolism high? I dont see how it wont do if,if you are losing muscle due to lack of protein,then eating protein will prevent that.

[Anniegirl9]

Perhaps you should also look up Goodwin’s Law while you’re researching stuff.

[MarkGossage]

The problem with your title is extended fasting is usually taken to mean anything more than 24 hours. What you mean (and this doesn’t mean that I agree with you) is fasting for weeks might not be beneficial.
You will obviously get lots of feedback due to this misunderstanding as well as the fact you just state things without providing any evidence. I could say I think the moon is made of cheese but that doesn’t make it so. if however I had some moon rock and had eaten it then I might perceived to be in a better position. So your opinion whilst being worth as much as any other’s is worth no more especially with no evidence.

[sugar-addict]

Perhaps you should also look up Goodwin’s Law while you’re researching stuff.

[J_A-M]

First off, overweight people can have eating disorders too. Second, minimum for who? Unless you’re the size of a small dog, those calories and macronutrients are not the minimum for anyone. It will not retain muscle, protect hormones, or keep metabolism high. Because it won’t be enough to do that. It will lower metabolism, use muscle, and stop production of certain hormones (which require a lot of energy to make). Whereas, not eating will allow an overweight body to switch into using its fat stores for a certain amount of time.

https://idmprogram.com/difference-calorie-restriction-fasting-fasting-27/

[sugar-addict]

Unless you’re the size of a small dog,

[sugar-addict]

This thread has unintentionally turned into one of the most hilarious threads on the forum

Keep going @BaconIsLifBaconIsLov !!!

[Shortstuff]

Oh yes. The more it goes on, the more it becomes obvious he knows absolutely nothing about how fasting works.