I think extended fasting is bad

#21

By your logic if I insult Hitler I am sh.t head.Ok.Great logic :+1:

(Shayne) #22

I don’t have to refute you. You made the offensive and inflammatory claims, therefore it is on you to show us the science to back it up. If you have something substantial, then we’ll consider changing our minds.

But if you do a search on this forum, you will see a lot of science that refutes your position - with studies to back it up.

I don’t know if you’re a nerd or not, but there is a quote from Star Trek that sums up my opinion on continuing this conversation: “It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame-of-reference.”

(Robert C) #23

I think the original poster is pushing 2 points.

The first is that some calories are better than none.
Dr. Fung refutes this well and I think the original poster should research this carefully.

The second point being pushed is that a 2-month water fast is bad because it is so long.
I agree with that to some extent.
Refeeding syndrome concerns, compliance and the strongly suggested medical supervision for a fast that long do not make it a good idea.
Dr. Fung recommends only up to 7 to 14 day fasts for severe diabetes and morbid obesity but wants to transition them to a regular 42-hour fasting protocol after that.
60 days straight of fasting has risks best avoided and I have read Dr. Fung suggesting breaking it up.
Basically, it would be much safer and likely easier to comply with 12 weeks of weekend only eating to get your 60 fasting days.

But, just because a very very long fast is difficult and not recommended for everyone, it does not follow that fasting is all bad.

#24

True,you dont have to.Its only offensive and infammatory if you are easily triggered snowflake,for normal person its opportunity to spread wisdom,have interesting conversation and get new people into extended fasting,not trolling as you suggest.

Instead of repeating how much more knowledgeable you are than me,you could wrote some specific science to support 2 month fasting and at this point,I could have been convinced and agreeing with you :wink:

#25

I never wrote fasting is bad.I meant 2 months fast is bad.Up to two weeks its ok IMO

#26

Finally constructive discussion :slightly_smiling_face:
Thats very interesting about Angus Barbieri,I will check it out.How did he avoid scurvy,did he drink juices? I find it hard to believe he didnt lost much muscle,fat people,especialy the more masculine ones can have very large muscles just from moving that mass around,like Louis Cyr.He had probably so much muscle under the fat that even despite the muscle loss,he retained high amount.

Yes,I know about autophagy,its truly amazing what are bodies can do to keep us alive.My point is,there is not enough protein to be gained by autophagy to fully satisfy the body needs for two months,especialy when lifting/excercising like we should.Skin protein cant be used for muscle regeneration,different aminos.My argument is,300 calories of essential proteins and fats are superior for very long fast becose it prevents muscle loss and allows lifting weights,also it helps keep metabolism high.

(Doug) #27

He had a multivitamin supplement.

We have much to learn about autophagy. I would not agree that the body cannot go for two months - there is not proof, either way, from what I have seen, and individual circumstances - one huge factor is the amount of fat one has to burn - will vary too much to make any blanket pronouncements.

Muscle tissue itself is maintained by autophagy, and if autophagy is slowed or stopped by a disease or disorder, muscle weakness and degeneration result.

The amino acids necessary for muscles are conserved very well in the body during fasting and via autophagy - it’s quite a homeostatic process. I don’t think we know enough yet to say that “the average person can only fast this many days before they start losing muscle.”

#28

What about bones? We need alot calcium daily,doesnt long fast cause bone loss? I agree we dont know when precisely we start losing muscle,I think its sooner than two months.Old skin peels away and muscle nitrogen is being pissed away.

(Doug) #29

The body’s response to fasting is to increase growth hormones, and this maintains bone and muscle tissue. Here’s a quote from Dr. Fung:

Growth hormone is known to increase the availability and utility of fats for fuel. It also helps to preserve muscle mass and bone density. Secretion is known to be pulsatile, making accurate measurement difficult. Growth hormone secretion decreases steadily with age. One of the most potent stimuli to growth hormone secretion is fasting. Over a five-day fasting period growth hormone secretion more than doubled. The net physiologic effect is to maintain muscle and bone tissue mass over the fasting period.

Calcium and other electrolytes - I do think some supplementation is a good and necessary thing for long fasts.

“Muscle nitrogen” - this is actually very well conserved by the body. I’ve never fasted longer than 10 days, so don’t know myself what I would feel on a very long fast. But I have never seen anybody say, “I fasted for this long and lost muscle.” It always seems to be people talking about their theories of what will happen. There are also accounts of people fasting for a comparatively long period, or fasting repeatedly, and actually gaining lean mass from beginning to end.

(TJ Borden) #30

I could be remembering wrong, but it seems like that was as a precaution because no one really knew what would happen. Looking back, they’re not sure how much was really necessary.

@BaconIsLifBaconIsLov, most of the vitamins and minerals we “need” are based on the replenishment needed due to the standard American diet. In the absence of the SAD, our system ends up holding onto, recycling, and in some cases, producing what it needs.

#31

Its true about the growth hormone,it increases alot during fast but without food nutrients the body have no other choice than take them away from existing muscle & bone.No amount of anabolic hormones can fully compensate for nutritional deficiency.The autophagy and growth hormone help protect body,but I doubt its 100% for 2 months.

I agree about supplements.I view it in way that 60g of protein and 10g of fat is like macronutrient supplent.

(Doug) #32

TJ - I think that’s right, they were monitoring him and took precautions, whether there was a proven need or not.

Unless there is an identifiable vitamin deficiency disease or condition, then it’s hard to separate hype, custom, our frequent desire for a “magic pill,” and the influence of supplement manufacturers out of it all.

#33

I agree that SAD based RDA is useless for us keto people,I say (write) that zero amount of every type of nutrient for two months is not optimal.I think those doing this extended fast would benefit from 60g protein and 10g fat a day.I argue that extreme low calorie diet is better than fast becose muscle mass and metabolism for 2 week + time frames.

(Robert C) #34

So you think the combination of autophagy and increased growth hormone helps to protect the body.

How do you turn off autophagy?

Dr. Fung explains here that having protein - even in the amounts found in bone broth - will stop autophagy.

#35

If you eat 60g of protein,autophagy wont turn off for whole day.Protein will be absorbed 4 hours then insulin drops.

(Brian) #36

Fasting is not a “one size fits all” kind of thing. Even Dr Fung is cautious about extended fasts and does not recommend them for some people. Doesn’t mean he’s against them.

(Robert C) #37

According to the video - Dr. Fung thinks it takes 24 to 48 hours of water-only fasting for autophagy to occur.
I have never read anywhere that once food is absorbed, autophagy begins.

(Brian) #38

I’ve heard him say that, but he also said that it happens faster for some.

(Robert C) #39

I would still avoid the original poster’s super low calorie “cut” suggestion in favor of fasting.

Whether you are one of the people that get to autophagy fast or not (which, I think, would be hard to determine) - it is just one of the positive mechanisms the body uses in the face of no calories coming in. Things get better for the body - preparing it for the next hunt.

It is different to how the body reacts when some calories are coming in - the body tries to adapt to the new “low food” environment by slowing down - an adaptation you do not want.

Where is the cut off? Who knows. 1200 calories made a lot of people on the biggest lower show become fat after the show because their metabolism was severely slowed. Original poster is suggesting 300. I prefer 28 calories from bone broth or sometimes zero calories a day to be sure.

#40

I think chasing autophagy just for the sake autophagy is not good thinking.We want autophagy to prevent muscle mass loss,I believe you will all agree with me that by eating protein you preserve more muscle mass than by not eating protein in two month time even despite the protein shutting down autophagy for some time.

Autophagy may start 48 hours after last meal if your comming down from your normal maintainance 2500 calorie diet,if you go 300cal for weeks,your glycogen stores will be depleted so jumping back to autophagy should be faster.