How to up my fat and fibre, but not protein?


(Ilana Rose) #21

120 grams of protein completely trashes my system. I’m a 5’5 52 yr old female. Nothing higher than 70 grams for me and preferably 60 to feel my best. Also, it affects everything, from brain fog, to skin issues, to digestion. Literally everything that is helped by being in a decent state of ketogenesis is broken by falling out of it from too much protein.


(Jacqui) #22

Thanks @x-Dena-x and @Ilana_Rose


(Bacon is the new bacon) #23
  1. The recommendations you will see around range from 1.0-2.0 g protein / kg lean body mass. (The Dudes recommend 1.0-1.5.) At 97 kg, your lean mass is probably around 68 kg, unless you have reason to believe it is less. In any case, even if your lean mass is 55 kg, you could eat anywhere from 55 to 110 g of protein, which would translate to 220 to 440 g of meat. Be aware that macros are calculated off of calories, not weight, so 100 g of protein + 100 g of fat = 31% protein and 69% fat (since protein contains approximately 4 cal/g, and fat approximately 9 cal/g).

  2. The experience of many of us on these forums is that fibre is a non-issue on keto. In fact, some of us find they do better on less fibre, rather than more. Do what works for you, however; just be aware that you may not need as much as you think.


(Bacon is the new bacon) #24

Be aware of the difference between net and total carbohydrate. Labeling laws vary from country to country. In the U.K. and Europe, the carbohydrate amount in the nutritional label is the net count; if you want to count total carbohydrate intake, you must add the fibre back in.

In the U.S. and Canada, the nutrition label lists the total carbohydrate count; if you want to count net carbohydrate, you must subtract the fibre out.


(Bacon is the new bacon) #25

That is actually an old hypothesis that has since been shown to be erroneous. Gluconeogenesis depends on the body’s need for glucose, not on the supply of amino acids.


(All facts start as dreams dreamt by a wizard) #26

I thought so too, but from reading Karim’s thread and his high protein experiment, it seemed to have upped his BG quite significantly. So maybe there is more truth to it than we think?


#27

Perfect answer according to my opinion. I am also doing the same… I eat when I am hungry and I keeping my carbs as low as possible because if I cut them out completely… I start feeling sad.


#28

Amy Berger has done some great analysis of the “too much protein will cause gluconeogenesis” myths. While there are always outliers–@Karim_Wassef seems to be one and @Ilana_Rose is also very sensitive to protein, for example–it’s not the typical response. I’m beginning to believe that most of what we know about diet, nutrition, and health is probably true for about 80% of the population and it’s not true to some unpredictable degree (a little, completely, who knows?) for the other 20%.


(Karim Wassef) #29

My experience is that protein can turn into glucose. When does that happens is a function of many forces.

Gluconeogenesis is usually driven by demand. Basically, the body demands specifically glucose (not ketones or fatty acids) and will extract it from non-carb sources like recycled lactate or the glycerol backbone of fatty acids or by deaminating proteins. If there is a lack of dietary protein, it will take from lean tissue…

As far as why the body demands glucose (not fat based energy), here’s my experience:

  1. Cortisol - stress signals the body that it needs high levels of immediately available energy. It wants glycogen stores refilled and lots of blood sugar (to run away from lions or stand up to your boss or spouse). Sleep and night/day offsets mess this up too.

  2. Intense exercise (like HIIT) - I see this as a derivative of stress (item 1 again), but it’s voluntarily initiated by picking those kinds of exercises.

  3. Not being fat adapted. This doesn’t apply to me since I choose to go into deep fasts to train my body to live on very low levels of glucose (lowest measured was 33), but the sugar burning body needs time to switch to fat sources. Even then, even a trickle of glucose will reset it to sugar burning.

So how about eating excessive protein (supply driven)?

In my experience - yes. This can also be converted to glucose because the body hates to be wasteful.

There is a minimum daily requirement of 100g protein (0.7g/lbs lean mass) or so just to keep the repair machine working without stress drives. As we age, we actually need more protein just to avoid deterioration. Also, lack of exercise actually causes more degradation too. More breaking requires more making and so more protein is needed.

For me, I’ve experimentally determined that with my body, my age, my exercise, and my stress and I need 1.4-1.5g/lbs lean mass just to avoid lean mass loss. I agree I’m not typical, but somewhere in that 0.7 - 1.4 probably is.

So if you eat your optimal protein need, you will replenish. If you eat more, you will gain weight. This weight can either be more muscle or more fat. If you create additional demand by weightlifting, the extra protein goes to muscle. If you don’t, the extra protein goes to fat.

I experience both sides of protein gluconeogenesis … it is demand driven to a point, but if you go into excess, it becomes supply driven. Our biology is not linear. It is very dynamic. It also changes as our bf% changes and as we age. It’s even nonlinear by triggering epigenetic changes that make us into different phenotypes of our former selves. I lost a ton of weight on dirty keto, then clean keto, now I’m doing high protein to bulk muscle… I am not the man I was.

I hope this helps.

For some evidence of my experience- I just got DEXA & RMR results and I’ve been keto for years now. Last night, I had only 14g of carbs… and today, I’m running 26% sugar burning! Where from?? The 240g of protein I had the night before were driving glucose and my body was choosing to use that for a portion of my needs.


(George) #30

How can someone on a mostly carnivore-based WOE avoid the protein turning into glucose?


(Karim Wassef) #31

I get 5-15g carbs on carnivore… cheese, eggs, shellfish and liver will do it…

But the “necessary” minimum glucose can be derived from protein. But it can also come from recycled lactate and glycerol in fatty acids.

I haven’t yet figured out the drivers that govern the selection of base material to process into glucose. If there is excess protein (more than the body needs for protein synthesis), deamination must occur because “excess” nitrogen needs to be removed from the body. Keep in mind that we need a lot of protein before it becomes “excess”.

If you remove the nitrogen from amino acids, you basically have the building blocks of glucose ready.

But lactate recycling is also very low energy and probably the first to get used up.

And if the body is using fatty acids, it’s got some glycerol hanging out too…

So… :man_shrugging:t2:


(George) #32

Hmmm. I think I’m in the safe zone then. I estimate that my protein intake is anywhere from 110 to 160g on any given day while not fasting.

Are you still doing mostly OMAD? I remember you saying you pretty much just eat a ribeye a day. Is that still the case?


(Karim Wassef) #33

I’m still OMAD except when I travel … gets crazy with time zones.

I eat sirloin, ribeye, eggs, liver, beef brains, chicken thighs and fish … some selection of that daily.

I’ve done carnivore for a couple of months and I love it.

But now that I’ve gotten down to 22% bf, I’m switching to leaner meats too. I don’t endorse this for anyone else. But if you want to know my experience: Karim's muscle gain carnivore adventure


(George) #34

Ah, good to know.

I’m finishing up my first month and loving it too. My meat cravings are through the roof, but I have switched from OMAD to 2/day the past 2 weeks. Considering switching back to OMAD starting next week. I still have quite a bit to go before I get near that body fat percentage lol.


(Ilana Rose) #35

Have a look through this thread.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/need-less-protein-and-more-fat/85536/47

There are many others just like it on these forums.

Many people find that too much protein affects their weight loss negatively. I doubt very much it’s 80% to 20%. I think higher protein is one of those things on keto that often isn’t a problem at first but as people get closer to their goals it sometimes needs a good hard second look.


(Karim Wassef) #36

I see that too, but I’m reconciling myself with the hunger change that higher protein brings to my biology because I can’t gain muscle without it.

I will say that it is changing though. I go over it in my carni muscle thread, and don’t advocate for it, especially not over 20% bf.


#37

I seriously wouldn’t worry about 150g of protein. Many people are afraid of protein, and most without a reason, I had my protein around 80-100g for a long time because I though the evil gluconeogenisis monster would get me. What got me was muscle loss and the inability to put anymore on. I cranked that up and doing much better now. Many people don’t consider how important it is to have a good percentage of muscle. Male, Female, Young, Old, doesn’t matter. Your only 35 so definitely keep that in mind. The metabolism effect of the muscle alone are worth it.


(Julia) #38

Hi CoderGirl, I’m also a 35 year old Brit with a very similar weight to you! I started Keto back in December but had a few blips at Christmas and Easter (damn hot cross buns!). I also struggle to balance the numbers some days, but found that in this early stage I can lose weight just keeping the carbs low and not worrying too much about the protein and fat. How are you getting on?


(George) #39

Yup, I think back to OMAD starts today. Ended up gaining 1.6 lbs after losing 3.8 last week. There are a couple factors that could have played into the gain, like eating a salad with lean chicken on Thursday because I was at a family thing at a restaurant that had nothing but fried food on the small menu, or from reintroducing dairy in the form of cream cheese, which I didnt do last week. Either way, bummed out about the gain lol


(Full Metal Keto) #40

Debatable and questionable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9416027