How to up my fat and fibre, but not protein?

#28

Amy Berger has done some great analysis of the “too much protein will cause gluconeogenesis” myths. While there are always outliers–@Karim_Wassef seems to be one and @Ilana_Rose is also very sensitive to protein, for example–it’s not the typical response. I’m beginning to believe that most of what we know about diet, nutrition, and health is probably true for about 80% of the population and it’s not true to some unpredictable degree (a little, completely, who knows?) for the other 20%.

(Karim Wassef) #29

My experience is that protein can turn into glucose. When does that happens is a function of many forces.

Gluconeogenesis is usually driven by demand. Basically, the body demands specifically glucose (not ketones or fatty acids) and will extract it from non-carb sources like recycled lactate or the glycerol backbone of fatty acids or by deaminating proteins. If there is a lack of dietary protein, it will take from lean tissue…

As far as why the body demands glucose (not fat based energy), here’s my experience:

  1. Cortisol - stress signals the body that it needs high levels of immediately available energy. It wants glycogen stores refilled and lots of blood sugar (to run away from lions or stand up to your boss or spouse). Sleep and night/day offsets mess this up too.

  2. Intense exercise (like HIIT) - I see this as a derivative of stress (item 1 again), but it’s voluntarily initiated by picking those kinds of exercises.

  3. Not being fat adapted. This doesn’t apply to me since I choose to go into deep fasts to train my body to live on very low levels of glucose (lowest measured was 33), but the sugar burning body needs time to switch to fat sources. Even then, even a trickle of glucose will reset it to sugar burning.

So how about eating excessive protein (supply driven)?

In my experience - yes. This can also be converted to glucose because the body hates to be wasteful.

There is a minimum daily requirement of 100g protein (0.7g/lbs lean mass) or so just to keep the repair machine working without stress drives. As we age, we actually need more protein just to avoid deterioration. Also, lack of exercise actually causes more degradation too. More breaking requires more making and so more protein is needed.

For me, I’ve experimentally determined that with my body, my age, my exercise, and my stress and I need 1.4-1.5g/lbs lean mass just to avoid lean mass loss. I agree I’m not typical, but somewhere in that 0.7 - 1.4 probably is.

So if you eat your optimal protein need, you will replenish. If you eat more, you will gain weight. This weight can either be more muscle or more fat. If you create additional demand by weightlifting, the extra protein goes to muscle. If you don’t, the extra protein goes to fat.

I experience both sides of protein gluconeogenesis … it is demand driven to a point, but if you go into excess, it becomes supply driven. Our biology is not linear. It is very dynamic. It also changes as our bf% changes and as we age. It’s even nonlinear by triggering epigenetic changes that make us into different phenotypes of our former selves. I lost a ton of weight on dirty keto, then clean keto, now I’m doing high protein to bulk muscle… I am not the man I was.

I hope this helps.

For some evidence of my experience- I just got DEXA & RMR results and I’ve been keto for years now. Last night, I had only 14g of carbs… and today, I’m running 26% sugar burning! Where from?? The 240g of protein I had the night before were driving glucose and my body was choosing to use that for a portion of my needs.

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(George) #30

How can someone on a mostly carnivore-based WOE avoid the protein turning into glucose?

(Karim Wassef) #31

I get 5-15g carbs on carnivore… cheese, eggs, shellfish and liver will do it…

But the “necessary” minimum glucose can be derived from protein. But it can also come from recycled lactate and glycerol in fatty acids.

I haven’t yet figured out the drivers that govern the selection of base material to process into glucose. If there is excess protein (more than the body needs for protein synthesis), deamination must occur because “excess” nitrogen needs to be removed from the body. Keep in mind that we need a lot of protein before it becomes “excess”.

If you remove the nitrogen from amino acids, you basically have the building blocks of glucose ready.

But lactate recycling is also very low energy and probably the first to get used up.

And if the body is using fatty acids, it’s got some glycerol hanging out too…

So… :man_shrugging:t2:

(George) #32

Hmmm. I think I’m in the safe zone then. I estimate that my protein intake is anywhere from 110 to 160g on any given day while not fasting.

Are you still doing mostly OMAD? I remember you saying you pretty much just eat a ribeye a day. Is that still the case?

(Karim Wassef) #33

I’m still OMAD except when I travel … gets crazy with time zones.

I eat sirloin, ribeye, eggs, liver, beef brains, chicken thighs and fish … some selection of that daily.

I’ve done carnivore for a couple of months and I love it.

But now that I’ve gotten down to 22% bf, I’m switching to leaner meats too. I don’t endorse this for anyone else. But if you want to know my experience: Karim's muscle gain carnivore adventure

(George) #34

Ah, good to know.

I’m finishing up my first month and loving it too. My meat cravings are through the roof, but I have switched from OMAD to 2/day the past 2 weeks. Considering switching back to OMAD starting next week. I still have quite a bit to go before I get near that body fat percentage lol.

(mole person) #35

Have a look through this thread.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/need-less-protein-and-more-fat/85536/47

There are many others just like it on these forums.

Many people find that too much protein affects their weight loss negatively. I doubt very much it’s 80% to 20%. I think higher protein is one of those things on keto that often isn’t a problem at first but as people get closer to their goals it sometimes needs a good hard second look.

(Karim Wassef) #36

I see that too, but I’m reconciling myself with the hunger change that higher protein brings to my biology because I can’t gain muscle without it.

I will say that it is changing though. I go over it in my carni muscle thread, and don’t advocate for it, especially not over 20% bf.

#37

I seriously wouldn’t worry about 150g of protein. Many people are afraid of protein, and most without a reason, I had my protein around 80-100g for a long time because I though the evil gluconeogenisis monster would get me. What got me was muscle loss and the inability to put anymore on. I cranked that up and doing much better now. Many people don’t consider how important it is to have a good percentage of muscle. Male, Female, Young, Old, doesn’t matter. Your only 35 so definitely keep that in mind. The metabolism effect of the muscle alone are worth it.

(Julia) #38

Hi CoderGirl, I’m also a 35 year old Brit with a very similar weight to you! I started Keto back in December but had a few blips at Christmas and Easter (damn hot cross buns!). I also struggle to balance the numbers some days, but found that in this early stage I can lose weight just keeping the carbs low and not worrying too much about the protein and fat. How are you getting on?

(George) #39

Yup, I think back to OMAD starts today. Ended up gaining 1.6 lbs after losing 3.8 last week. There are a couple factors that could have played into the gain, like eating a salad with lean chicken on Thursday because I was at a family thing at a restaurant that had nothing but fried food on the small menu, or from reintroducing dairy in the form of cream cheese, which I didnt do last week. Either way, bummed out about the gain lol

(Full Metal KETO AF) #40

Debatable and questionable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9416027

(Full Metal KETO AF) #41

Ignore % calculates macros, use a gram amount. Which is closer to 5% carbs in most cases. At any rate just because you may be a bigger person using a percentage based measurement of carbohydrate will allow you more than 20g. of carbs. A big person doesn’t need more carbs than a petite one. Stick with a 20 gram limit on carbs no matter your size. Percentage macros are messed up. If you underconsume protein and fat based on a percentage macro your carb macro may be at an undesired high percentage. Eating extra fat and protein will make carb overconsumption look okay percentage wise. So use grams for accuracy. Percentages are worthless tracking keto macros in my opinion. I am sure someone will disagree but this is what makes sense to me, chasing percentage macros to try and make them perfect will drive you crazy and it’s a waste of time and nearly impossible to have things in balance at the end of the day. Daily amounts naturally vary some and that’s okay. Focus on being satisfied with your food instead keeping your carb limit. It looks like you need more fats to balance things. I’m not speaking in macro lingo here but in actual weights of protein and fat, equal weights of those two will give you a balanced fat to protein ratio with double the calories of fat compared to protein. Early in keto especially you should be consuming more fat than protein, later after fat adaptation has occurred (2+ months) you can dial back on fat to burn more body fat, but until your body gets better at utilizing body fat more dietary fats are needed to boost your metabolism and get it accustomed to burning fats as your main fuel source.

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #42

I respect your diligence at finding exactly what works for you. However I consume about 1g. protein per pound of lean body mass, or over 2g. Per kilo and I am loosing weight weekly. I am 60 years old and have gone down from 205lbs to 162lbs in 9 months doing this. I consume between 130-155g. of protein daily and less fat because I have been at keto 9 months and body fats are making up any shortages of dietary fats. I also consume a decent amount of lean meats, my body fat percentage is estimated at 19% now compared with 27% when I started keto.
I basically flipped my fat and protein macros so protein is higher than fat in gram amounts. Everyone is different metabolically. YMMV :cowboy_hat_face:

(Karim Wassef) #43

It “CAN” be… also need to define “excess”

(Full Metal KETO AF) #44

Usually your statements are very articulate, I’m not sure what you mean by defining excess? I never used that word in my post. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Karim Wassef) #45

Dena said it “WILL”. I’m correcting that to: it “CAN”.

Also Dena said “excess” protein. That term undefined can cause confusion because what is excess depends… she’s a grammarly nerd after all :smiley:

So she would be right based on my experience. But we need to refine and define the terminology.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #46

@Karim_Wassef You directed the comment to me, so I got confused. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Karim Wassef) #47

I did because you said her comment was debatable so I was debating. She’s right because she’s referencing my experience, but it’s also incomplete - so you’re right too. :smiley: