Frustrated!

(Alec) #41

I love this. A wonderful illustration of CICO thinking being incorrect. Anybody suggesting to you that you have an “energy balance” problem is stuck in CICO thinking that is not helpful. It may be technically correct (as you can’t change the laws of thermodynamics) but it is not helpful as to what to do next.

CICO will tell you to expend more calories (ie go do more exercise) or eat less: both of these will exacerbate your problem. It will result in your body shutting down even more (spending even less calories and not using bodyfat). Keto thinking says feed it with more fat calories, and it will burn them, and as you get to fat adapted with a lot of fat coming in, it will start burning your bodyfat (overnight, for example). Hence weight loss.

However, this chain is dependent on your body saying to itself “ah, I have plenty of resources to burn here”. If you don’t feed it, it won’t work.
Cheers
A

(Jay AM) #42

I’m not sure when people will understand this concept. I’m a fat gal, I’ve been told to exercise more and eat less for a long time. If that worked, I’d be a model by now. A lot of us would be.

This was a good conversation on calories.

(Alec) #43

Spot on, Jay. It’s counterintuitive, it is against the conventional wisdom, and doctors have been threatened with being struck off because they said this. But it makes it no less true.

I am the same: I tried calorie counting and low fat for most of my life, and surprise surprise, I lost and gained the same 15kg about 10 times, and I struggled and struggled and struggled each time. And I ended up worse each time.

I go keto: lost 30kg, and I am still going, easily, no strain, never being hungry, and eating bacon. How great is that!

#44

Thank you for your information @Alecmcq and @J_A-M

I am keen to get this straight, as I think this is a key point, and may be a problem for me.

I understand the CICO method doesn’t work, and I REALLY don’t care about calories- I only check them incidentally out of inteerst when logging in MFP for carb counting. BUT I find that the keto WOE is so satiating that I just don’t get that many calories in. Here’s an example from today;

Didn’t do a IF today- was hungry at 9 so had 2 eggs with HWC and butter, a couple mushrooms fried in butter on the side.

Hungry again at 12- so had an avocado with loads of olive oil- struggled to fit that in. Has planned to have bacon but just can’t face it.

Know I will be hungry agan for dinner, so all good there, but looking back through my diary I can see I have rarely eaten more than 5-600 calories in a meal- and that is a stretch. That will put me at 1300 ish cals for the day. I think I would probably ‘do better’ at about 1800- (169cms, 88kgs), but I find I cannot EAT that much. It’s so filling!

I can see the science, it is the phsyical act of eating that much fat in a day that is making it tricky. It’s not revulsion (far from it- butter…mmmm), its a ‘listening to my body’s hunger signals’ thing.

Does this capacity improve over time? I would love to be one of those people who eats a spoonful of butter, just not there yet!

#45

Update…after I wrote ‘I would love to be one of those people who eats butter’…I thought I would confirm whether I am or not. One of those people, that is.

Fired up four rashers of bacon, then put a slab of cold butter on each one, and Ate. Them. All. Up.

So apparently I am one of those people now. :wink:

Learning learning…

(Kathrine) #46

yeah the body doesn’t work like that…
It all depends on hormones and survival mechanisms… :slight_smile:
But it’s easier to get to your goal when you know how the body reacts to different things…

(Raven) #47

Hi love! I can relate too much. My boyfriend lost 9 pounds this past week (we’re on week two) and I only lost 3. Guys lose weight so quickly, I’ve learned the hard way. However, I’m huge. I weigh 289 (Just got under the 290’s) and what helped me compared to before, was upping my calories. I used to have anorexia and growing up my life was based around counting calories. Now that I’m learning to up my calories and start to eat more (like 1600-1700), I notice I’m dropping measurements on the daily. I literally used to eat 1,000-1,300 Cals to lose weight because we’re conditioned to believe we must eat this way. But on Keto, eat a LOT of fat. I mean it. If you stall, eat more fat. I promise I’ve been where you are in past ‘diets’ or weight loss journey. Eating more has helped so much. Also, green tea! I love drinking green tea, with a tablespoon of apple cidar Vinegar, and a sprinkle of cinnamon for the health benefits. Each of those aids in weight loss and metabolism health. Definitely try it! I love it. I hope the weight loss kicks in for you lovely. I know the struggle all too well. <3

Edit: I also IF every day. I don’t eat until around 6-7 pm to about 9 and then I’m usually full all day. I eat enough calories within those hours though. Just two heavy fat meals.

(Alec) #48

It looks like this could be an experimental process. My experience is that some fats go down easier than others. For example I am getting a lot of fat in through having cream in my coffee rather than milk. And I tend to ask for a side of butter with every meal (home or out). And fat bombs that are sweet (ish).

Back to butter… one of my new favourite dishes/sides is raw spinach with a solid butter “dressing”, meaning chopped up butter. Absolutely yum!!! Butter I think supports other foods so well, and I think helps everything go down well.

(Ken) #49

That’s a pretty good explanation. It’s nice to see it being reiterated since it’s been around for over two decades but seems to have been lost as many current gurus of “Nutty Keto” have conviently ignored it. I’ve always disagreed with the absurd nutty keto low protein, absurdly high fat macros. The article reinforces the Evolutionary Macro of 60/35/5%, which is then eaten to satiety. IMO, the real reason the nutty low protein macro is pushed has more to do with an anti meat eating agenda rather than actual biochemistry.

(Ken) #51

It sounds like you’re both still depleting glycogen. After that happens, a one to two pound fat loss per week is normal and healthy.

(Ken) #52

IMO, she’s a little different, as she’s just starting out, but has yet to experience significant fat loss. Usually, due to reduction of hormonal resistance issues, CICO does not matter at least initially, usually until well adapted and significant fat loss does occur.

CICO does eventually matter, once you’ve eliminated derangement, but can take years. I had lost over 180lbs. before it happened to me.

#53

I can’t think of one nutrition expert who would dispute this fact, whether from a keto background or not. I’m actually surprised how often this is disputed on this forum. Saying that “many people lose weight without counting calories” is not the same as saying “calories don’t matter”. Most people experience reduced appetite on keto, but I think a lot of people assume that’s because of the increased fat. What about the reduction of carbs or the increase in protein intake?

In the case of the OP, she’s not losing weight at 1,400 calories per day she says. I believe her, but how do we know that’s a caloric deficit? A basic BMR calculator puts her at maybe 1,700 calories per day expended. Factor in some small variations in “calorie counting” (being low is common) and some possible metabolic damage/slowdown and the idea that she is at “energy balance” becomes pretty conceivable. Lastly, we really have no idea on what has been going on with her body composition. Perhaps it’s improved drastically? We also don’t know what her fasting insulin numbers are which could potentially tell us a lot.

Has anyone ever heard an expert explain a “fat fast”? I’ve seen and heard it discussed on here but never really heard a doctor break it down. Clearly it works for some people but I’m curious as to what’s actually happening if we indeed know?

(Raj Seth) #54

it did - I became a model - of what not to do :open_mouth:

(Raj Seth) #55

Lots of judgemental verbiage there.

(Raj Seth) #56

N=1
I pursued an aggressive FEAST/FAST cycle. I fasted in slugs of 1.5, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 days. about 1:2 ratio of fasting:feasting. When feasting, I focused on eating a ton, and tried to eat just a skosh more than I thought I wanted - like 2-3 strips of bocon, or equivalent. My homespun goal was to up my BMR. No scientific evidence or before and after measurements of BMR, but it must have worked - I feel juiced all the time, whether fasted or fed. I lost NO weight in 4 months, but lost 4-6" on my pant size. Now, I look and feel waaaay better. I am never hungry - fasted or fed.

You can hatch your own plan with all the information you have read on this forum

(Ken) #57

It’s because 20 years ago when many of these low protein studies came out they clearly (IMO) had an anti meat and fat agenda. Usually they were paired with the view that since you really didn’t need that much, you could get it from non-meat sources. A stealth vegetarian/vegan attempt. There was seemingly endless refutation and rebuttal of them from not only the Paleo crowd, but the Keto people of that time as well.

If CICO didn’t matter at some point, we’d all be able to get to 0% body fat because of “Magic Keto”…

#58

Have you done by chance a genetic test? This question because there is growing evidence that some diets, including keto, are less effective in ApoE4 carriers. This gene codes for the apolipoprotein E that combines with fat to produce lipoproteins. Meaning that yes there is growing evidence that keto just isn’t right for every people.

If you don’t know your genetics, I recommend to do a cholesterol test when on keto. If crazy high, you should assess the pros and cons to continue a keto diet.

(Diana) #59

How do I get a genetic test? I’ve heard that it takes a while for cholesterol to even out in keto

(Jay AM) #60

Would you like to add some context to this? There are many reasons for high total cholesterol to show up on a test. There’s a whole website for this with good info.

Meanwhile, as for APoE-4, we have a discussion below about it.

(Coinneach Domhnullaich) #61

Sorry to hear it! but don’t worry, keep calm and keto on! really, women are different(smarter?), much more complicated especially hormonaly. If you haven’t listened to all (or any) of the podcasts, check out show number 32 (Femail), it addresses some of the issues women face that men don’t. Men have it a lot easier, usually.