Finally found a detailed, helpful, intelligent article about Keto and Salt (by Phinney and Volek)


(icky) #1

Hi all,

Some of you know that I’ve been researching the Keto and salt link and the Keto and diuretic and electrolyte link, trying to understand it.

For some reason (perhaps because I am TOFI and not doing Keto for weightloss, or perhaps due to a genetic predisposition) I have not experienced Keto as diuretic or required additional salt.

In fact, I developed some scary health problems (heart and muscles) when I elevated my salt intake to that of fellow Keto’ers.

So I’ve been trying to research what the Keto and salt link is and trying to understand why my salt need/ tolerance is different to that of many here.

I found this article (thanks to @mtncntrykid !) by Phinney and Volek on their “Virta” website and this has been the most detailed, well-explained, scientific explanation re Keto, salt, electrolytes, kidneys, diuretic effect that I’ve read so far.

https://blog.virtahealth.com/sodium-nutritional-ketosis-keto-flu-adrenal-function/

It’s called “Sodium, Nutritional Ketosis, and Adrenal Function”

It doesn’t really explain yet, why I and some others are not experiencing this effect to the same degree that others are, but there are indications of what to look at.

I’m not experiencing big weight loss, I’m not experiencing big water weight loss, unlike some fellow Keto’ers I’m not a sporty person - I don’t run, cycle or lift weights so am not sweating as much, my body may be producing/ using Ketones more efficiently than others as I have 10 years experience of extended fasts, and so on and so forth.

I will keep researching this, as I find it a really interesting topic and am grateful for any scientifically sound tidbits of information anyone can add as a piece of the puzzle.


Trouble fasting after 5 months of having it easy
(icky) #2

Also thanks to @rhltechie who found this bit of information:

I am watching it now. He just said something that really hit home to me. “The higher your ketones, the faster your kidneys excrete salt.” I did not know this yet and really helps me understand why I might be feeling a bit odd when I my readings are really high.

In the following youtube video by Phinney:

A reference at 33 mins/ 34 mins

And a lot more detail in Part 2 of the video:

Starting at 10 mins and going through to 25 mins


(icky) #3

This is from the Virta article


18 days on Keto and SO tired
(icky) #4

Not enough salt

After decades of the media propagating low sodium diets, do you find yourself actively avoiding salt? If so, you may be susceptible to the common pitfall of not consuming enough of this critical mineral, putting you at risk for some pesky side effects.

Current US dietary guidelines recommend 2300 mg of sodium per day. However, recent research published in mainstream journals like the New England Journal of Medicine highlights that consuming 2300 mg or less of sodium daily actually increases mortality in the general healthy adult population; in fact, for optimal health, most of us need anywhere between 4000-5000 mg of sodium per day — and that’s for people consuming standard diets containing appreciable amounts of carbohydrate (O’Donnell, 2014).

On a ketogenic diet, consuming adequate sodium becomes all the more critical, as the rate of sodium excretion by the kidneys into the urine increases quite significantly while in nutritional ketosis. This means that most people on a ketogenic diet need to consume closer to 5000 mg (i.e., 5 grams) of sodium — which equals 12 grams of salt — per day in order to maintain an adequate balance. Starting in just the first few days of adapting to nutritional ketosis, neglecting to consume 5 grams of sodium can put your circulatory system into disarray and trigger the notorious “keto flu” symptoms: headaches, dizziness, lightheadedness, fatigue and constipation. And here’s an important point: this daily need for 5 grams of sodium continues as long as one remains in nutritional ketosis; it’s not just a temporary need during keto-adaptation as some bloggers would have you believe.

Fortunately, you can keep these symptoms at bay and improve your overall well-being and function by simply salting your food moderately and consuming 2 servings of broth or bouillon daily. For most people, this results in about 3 grams of sodium from regular food plus 2 grams from broth, totaling 5 grams per day. Keep in mind that salt and sodium are not the same —1 teaspoon of salt is the equivalent of 5 grams of salt but contains only 2.3 grams of sodium (the rest is chloride).

Note: please consult a medical professional if you have high blood pressure or fluid retention due to congestive heart failure or kidney problems to determine the right dietary sodium intake for you.

This is from the Virta website article "Top 5 Nutritional Ketosis Mistakes—And How to Fix Them"

https://blog.virtahealth.com/top-keto-mistakes/

(For some reasons - although I am fully in Ketosis and fat adapted - I’m still not experiencing this need for additional sodium tho! But I have always been biochemically weird :smile: )


Keto Messing with My Sleep
Needing to eat every 3 to 4 hours?
(Doug) #5

Very helpful, I’m in my third month and trying to make it work in a busy life.

I have found these Himalayan Salt Caps convenient.


(icky) #6

Adding this info about electrolytes - the different kinds of electrolyte imbalances.

Salt is an electrolyte, but we have several others too.

Electrolytes are tricky.

Not only does each electrolyte have to be balanced, but they also have to be balanced with each other.

Salt (sodium) is also an electrolyte.

Here’s the important electrolytes and the names for having too much (hyper) or too little (hypo) of each:

calcium: hypercalcemia and hypocalcemia
chloride: hyperchloremia and hypochloremia
magnesium: hypermagnesemia and hypomagnesemia
phosphate: hyperphosphatemia or hypophosphatemia
potassium: hyperkalemia and hypokalemia
sodium: hypernatremia and hyponatremia

The thing seems to be that if for example you are getting “too much” of one electrolyte (lets call it Electrolyte A) then your body will down-regulate that electrolyte level by making you pee a lot.

That has that electrolyte and water flushing out of your system, but also the other electrolytes.

So now, for example your Electrolyte A levels would be fine again, but you’re deficient in the other electrolytes, will get those deficiency symptoms (a lot of them seem to be fatigue/ dizziness and muscle related like cramps, including heart muscle) and will then need to supplement those other electrolytes.

You can get these symptoms from any of the electrolytes and you can get them EITHER from having too much OR from having too little OR from them being out of balance with each other.

So you need to try and find out which electrolyte it is and whether you need more or less of it.

Electrolytes are really powerful body chemistry.


In ketosis, but not losing fat inches. I’m extremely tired and lethargic... different from “keto flu”
#7

I have been looking for information about this! Thank you!!


#8

Thank you so much for this information! I have struggled to get my electrolytes and sodium, in particular, high enough. My heart was racing, which was very worrying.
I think I have finally got it and am feeling so much better.
I really appreciate you sharing these informative posts.


(just call me bbb :)) #9

About 5 weeks into Keto diet & IF now. Blood pressure has always been on the low 100s BUT today I checked & it fell below 80/60 :open_mouth: a bit of headache but not dizzy. Panicked & headed for a snack & asked for some table salt - about 2 pinch-ful. Checked again an hour later & phewwwww went back up to 100/70 my normal level :sweat_smile:

Good info shared in this thread! Is this in the “show me the science” section? IMHO it should be “pinned”

PS: Note to self … remember to have a little bottle / vial of salt with me all the time :sunglasses:


(Consensus is Politics) #10

This is very interesting. I also see its an old thread, but I missed it last year.

Something I remember hearing or reading in the past few months was the effect of salt on blood pressure. I’ll look for it and post the specifics here. But to sum up, the effect on blood pressure was about 1% per gram of salt. So BP of 120/80, taking 5 grams of salt, would have an increase to about 127/85. That’s negligible in my book. And to get it into definitely high blood pressure range would need about 20 grams of salt. I think that would be rather dificult to do unless intentionally trying to harm yourself by just eating raw salt.