Excess Protein Discussion

[Dread1840]

Excellent. I’ll pore over these! Thank you!

[Ilana_Rose]

Ilana_Rose’s post varies a bit from my belief but I won’t dismiss or refute her statement because I have little knowledge in how protein may or may not affect men and women differently.

I know I can come off as anti-protein but I’m really not at all. In fact I’m extremely interested in zero carb myself. But I am also very concerned about getting ahead of the evidence that loads of protein is healthful.

On the subject of a high protein diet’s effectiveness for weight loss I’m actually quite convinced that it works very well for a lot of people. I don’t at all doubt the N=1’s of you and Juice and several others here. But, as you said, there are also many others here who say higher protein levels knock them right out of ketosis and there may be a sex difference in how this falls out.

For this reason I don’t think it the right advice to tell newbies right out of the gate that ad libetum protein works fine with keto. It’s actually in opposition to how a ketogenic diet is defined by the two keto dudes, and I think the reason for that is that this advice fails with a significant proportion of people.

I don’t mind at all telling newbies not to worry about some extra protein early on, but I think it’s a good idea to qualify that with the reminder that they may at some point need to tighten the reins on protein if the have a major stall since in some people it will significantly affect the rate of fat burning.

I also have a suspicion that some people’s satiety signaling is out of whack with respect to protein. For example, I can only eat a very reasonable amount of protein in a single meal, but my husband can seemingly eat a virtual mountain of steak in one sitting.

[RobC]

For this reason I don’t think it the right advice to tell newbies right out of the gate that ad libetum protein works fine with keto.

100% agree - Newbies should have a chance to find out what true keto prescribed fat-adaptation feels like as well as a chance to straighten out their potentially messed up satiety signaling. I do not think Carnivore, Vegan keto, high-protein or fasting should come into the picture until fat-adapted people are asking how to plateau bust. I am as guilty as anyone of throwing IF/EF out a little too early but, I have learned and am trying to keep it straight.

If we push the exotic on the newbies, they don’t go through the learning process on the basics and miss a lot of general knowledge chasing that next few pounds - potentially bouncing because they let their old CICO background creep in and then we lose them.

[RobC]

As far as the question of whether excess protein is possible - or the truth (or not) of the statement “there is no excess protein” - I don’t know but, I have an opinion.

We have lots of body builders in their 50s and 60s that, due to bro-science, overdid protein and having health problems / dropping dead (admittedly, they also did a lot of other anti-longevity things like steroids).

But, Carnivore seems to be working well for lots of people and some are truly flourishing (e.g. Dr. Shawn Baker).

I suspect that where this will finally land is that if you take protein supplements - it will be easy to have excess protein (i.e. too much for your system to deal with in a healthy way - overworking your internal organs for no good reason).

If you get protein from natural sources - it will be difficult (but still possible) to overdo protein (for example, Carnivore on lean meats as a bro-science fat fearing bodybuilding competitor might try - a dozen chicken breasts per day for example).

But, if you get protein from natural sources and have a reasonable amount fat also (even near 50/50 on calories), I think you might be fine.

Not a medical professional - all of the above is just opinion - a guess as to what we’ll determine about upping protein beyond keto (while still restricting carbs to keto levels).

[Ilana_Rose]

But, Carnivore seems to be working well for lots of people and some are truly flourishing (e.g. Dr. Shawn Baker).

Yes, but this particular experiment has a small sample size, is entirely uncontrolled, and is of relatively short duration with respect to human lifespan.

For example, some of the carnivores are actually keeping tightly to ketogenic principles. I think I’ve heard Amber O’Hearn say say her calories from fat are at 80%. I have much fewer concerns about a truly ketogenic-carnivore diet as that experiment has been massively tested in various human populations.

Part of my concerns stem from the very fact that there are no known populations that eat a diet that is very high in protein and I’m left wondering why that might be.

We have good scientific evidence that a very high protein diet might be stressful in a variety of ways and pointing to a few people who are seemingly healthy after ten years out of a 90+ year lifespan is just not good enough to counter those concerns for me…yet.

[RobC]

I was just bringing in examples to explain my prediction on where we might eventually land on the excess protein debate.

I am a fellow skeptic with lots being stated on this thread (from comment 40 and down - I value Dr. Rhonda’s opinion greatly in the video):

Feels like I’m dying after four days trying carnivore

I have also heard that people are trying Carnivore for auto-immune issues as a last resort and / or something similar to an elimination diet (listen to 1:20 from the video linked). The worry is (per Dr. Rhonda Patrick in the video linked) that people without issues are trying it - without much research on long term effects as no one has ever done this before (just muscle meat for periods of time longer than seasons in their area would require). I guess the point is, if you are feeling really …

[Ilana_Rose]

I was just bringing in examples to explain my prediction on where we might eventually land on the excess protein debate.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t really disagreeing with anything you said so much as using your post as an opportunity for elucidating my own position.

I am a fellow skeptic with lots being stated on this thread

Yes, I’ve read your comments in that thread and think our concerns are actually very closely aligned. The main difference between us is that I think I may lean a bit more heavily in favour of the likelihood that animal meat and fat may be all that humans need for all of their nutritional requirements.

But…and this is a big “but”, I only believe this with respect to much more nose to tail animal consumption than we tend to have in the west. Beyond that we are really just experimenting with our long-term health.

I’m rereading the comments in that thread that you linked to try to find the Rhonda Patrick video but I haven’t found it yet. Could you relink it here, please?

[RobC]

Sure (yes - non-nose-to-tail is that much farther away from ancestral eating - where a kill was expensive so everything was used that could possible be used).

[Ilana_Rose]

Thank you. I had seen this before but I was happy to rewatch it. I have a deep respect for Rhonda Patrick and I agree with her concerns about how untested the carnivore diet is but I actually disagree with a lot of what she says in this video.

For one, I think that she has a strong pro-plant bias that’s very evident and it seems to be interfering with her imagination on what some possible positive benefits a plantless diet might confer. In that entire discussion she focusses almost entirely on imagined, but also untested, beneficial side effects of carnivory rather then on possible direct positive effects of a plantless diet.

Just take the hypothesis that carnivory leads to calorie restriction and is thus fasting mimicking and fingering those benefits rather than any unique to a plantless diet. I see no reason, based upon how I’ve seen carnivores eat, to believe that a carnivore diet would be calorie-restrictive. In fact, if anything I think they eat more calories. I have to wonder how many she’s met or talked to.

A much more likely hypothesis to me is the much higher digestibility of animal meats and fats leading to fewer intestinal stressors. Fibre just might be awful for loads of people. That’s something I’d love to see tested properly.

She also ignores that the studies showing all the purported benefits of plant consumption are comparing a high plant diet to a low plant but still high carb diet. In other words, when you pit high plant consumption against high carbage consumption, high plant comes out the winner.

Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts on that video. I apologize if I seem overly opinionated but I’m really trying to keep an open mind on this topic and I felt she was being a bit dismissive.

[Dread1840]

I agree very much with everything you said here. I’ve been following Rhonda for two years, actually after first hearing her on this podcast (earlier episode).

My issues with a lot of what she says is she’s basically citing “ghost studies” since there’s no reference made to any of them. I actually have asked her on multiple occasions to share her sources or elaborate on them (not only for this but various stuff) and she just stonewalls me.

“Well, there’s a study that suggests this may be this, etc”

Right, but which study, and what does the data say? What was the subject eating, what is the sample size? RCT or epi study? Length of the experiment? All of these things are so critical to every argument she made and she really just glossed right over it.

“You can get most of these benefits from fasting, I think.”

I get that fasting is popular and has had great effects for many people, myself included. But maybe it’s not intended to be such an everyday thing that it’s become. Perhaps it’s just that our dietary habits as a species are so out of whack, that not eating has become healthier than eating in many cases.

[Ilana_Rose]

My issues with a lot of what she says is she’s basically citing “ghost studies” since there’s no reference made to any of them.

Did you ever find the 30 pages of referenced material on her thoughts on the carnivore diet that she mentions at the start? I’d be interested in having a look at that.

Perhaps it’s just that our dietary habits as a species are so out of whack, that not eating has become healthier than eating in many cases.

That’s very well put.

I have another thought along a similar vein. It may be that decades on a poor diet are so messing up some of our guts that they feel better on vacation. My difference with Rhonda Patrick is that I think this vacation may also arise from a food type that is more fully digested before it reaches the colon.

[CarlKeller]

As always, you make brilliant points and I totally respect what you post.

But I am also very concerned about getting ahead of the evidence that loads of protein is healthful.

I never suggest loads. My escape clause is always to use satiety as a guide. As long as that mechanism is not faulty, loads of protein won’t be eaten. In your husband’s case, and in my own at various times of my life, the tendency is to keep eating because what we are eating is delicious. We eclipse that point of satiety and reach a point of literally being stuffed… and that’s not good eating behavior for sure.

Probably the most common problem I see in new members is that they are hungry and/or stressed about not hitting macros. I honestly feel like they won’t succeed if they are stressed and hungry and it’s so easy to just say, “Oh you will get used to it, try to relax”. But if we can get them to relax by eating a little more protein and fat that enables them to get a better handle on ghrelin and hopefully that will self-regulate and lower the amount of protein they will need in the future. I honestly feel like we are failing them if we don’t tell them to eat more if they say they are hungry.

For this reason I don’t think it the right advice to tell newbies right out of the gate that ad libetum protein works fine with keto. It’s actually in opposition to how a ketogenic diet is defined by the two keto dudes, and I think the reason for that is that this advice fails with a significant proportion of people.

I realize this and it’s actually a fairly controversial issue amongst the keto experts. It might be prudent of me to to allude to that when I make comments about new members being hungry… and it certainly won’t hurt. I will say that I’ve harped the message about eating protein and fat to satiety and not to worry about those macros so much, but I can’t say I’ve had anyone tell me they tried it and it screwed them.

I also have a suspicion that some people’s satiety signaling is out of whack with respect to protein. For example, I can only eat a very reasonable amount of protein in a single meal, but my husband can seemingly eat a virtual mountain of steak in one sitting.

I totally agree with you. I believe it’s the carbs that have screwed up what we perceive to be proper and that by eliminating carbs, we do get better at understanding how leptin and ghrelin are supposed to work. In the beginning this is definitely a challenge and it does take some time to understand these hormones.

Your post has definitely made me more aware that I should be conscious of the fact that my belief (and Amy Berger’s) may not work for everyone and that I should incorporate the phrase “In some people…” more often. That’s an easy fix.

[RobC]

For one, I think that she has a strong pro-plant bias that’s very evident and it seems to be interfering with her imagination on what some possible positive benefits a plantless diet might confer.

Hi again

This statement made me sit up a bit and it took me a while to figure out why.

It seems you are stepping into your idea of what is in her imagination to try to discern motivation for her arguments (i.e. she seems plant oriented so maybe extra harsh on Carnivore).

But, as far as I know, she is Patreon based (only) and wouldn’t make anything if someone did or did not choose Vegan, Carnivore, etc.

Yet, at the same time, lots of people here are accepting (without question) information from Carnivore advocates that have their income tied up in speaking engagements, web sites and books based on Carnivore (i.e. new hot trend sells well).

They really have good reasons to skip over or minimize counter-Carnivore, yet are listened to intensely (I suspect because lots of people really like steak). Then they are defended far farther than the total amount of backing support, studies etc. warrant.

[juice]

For this reason I don’t think it the right advice to tell newbies right out of the gate that ad libetum protein works fine with keto.

I’ll tell them that, but it’s also clear that my advice is initial advice only.

It’s actually in opposition to how a ketogenic diet is defined by the two keto dudes

More to the point, it’s in opposition to definitions from actual experts in the area.

But other experts agree with it as an idea.

So it’s confusing and anything besides straightforward, yeah.

I don’t mind at all telling newbies not to worry about some extra protein early on

Yup

I do not think Carnivore, Vegan keto, high-protein or fasting should come into the picture until fat-adapted people are asking how to plateau bust. I am as guilty as anyone of throwing IF/EF out a little too early but, I have learned and am trying to keep it straight.

(e.g. Dr. Shawn Baker).

Having followed Shawn on IG for a fair while before I couldn’t take it any more, I’m not convinced he’s all that worried about the reality as much as the perception. Some of the wonky stuff he’s posted simply because it’s got a headline he agrees with is concerning.

My issues with a lot of what she says is she’s basically citing “ghost studies” since there’s no reference made to any of them. I actually have asked her on multiple occasions to share her sources or elaborate on them (not only for this but various stuff) and she just stonewalls me.

“Well, there’s a study that suggests this may be this, etc”

Right, but which study, and what does the data say? What was the subject eating, what is the sample size? RCT or epi study? Length of the experiment? All of these things are so critical to every argument she made and she really just glossed right over it.

“You can get most of these benefits from fasting, I think.

If you’re not disclosing the study reference, then you’re not quoting a study at all. You might as well be making it up. The point of quoting studies is so that they can be checked by anyone who wants to see if you’re telling the truth.

I get that fasting is popular and has had great effects for many people, myself included. But maybe it’s not intended to be such an everyday thing that it’s become.

It’s one of the (bigger) issues here on the forum, that people are pushing it on noobs because doing so makes them feel good about THEMSELVES, not because it’s good for noobs.

Perhaps it’s just that our dietary habits as a species are so out of whack, that not eating has become healthier than eating in many cases.

Well, that’s impossible to argue with. (Referenced studies or not

For one, I think that she has a strong pro-plant bias that’s very evident and it seems to be interfering with her imagination on what some possible positive benefits a plantless diet might confer. In that entire discussion she focusses almost entirely on imagined, but also untested, beneficial side effects of carnivory rather then on possible direct positive effects of a plantless diet.

Yup, she’s big on that. Again.

[Ilana_Rose]

As always, you make brilliant points and I totally respect what you post.

Thank you! I always enjoy reading yours and think you give excellent and empathetic advice to the newbies.

I never suggest loads. My escape clause is always to use satiety as a guide.

I think my preference would be to tell new people who complain of hunger to initially try the high end of the protein macro at 1.5 g/kg of lean mass and to supplement that with fat to satiety, and then if, after two months, they aren’t losing fat to reconsider a lower protein macro.

However, I also absolutely agree that starting with just the “<20 g of carbs” advice takes a big load off the new people.

I guess I feel that new people, in general, can handle a certain amount of nuance and we can tell them “don’t worry too much about this right now, but be aware that…”

I honestly feel like they won’t succeed if they are stressed and hungry

I completely agree with this, but I also worry that we lack data on how many people bail on this diet because they don’t lose weight initially. I think this is a tightrope that we have to walk carefully.

[RobC]

Having followed Shawn on IG for a fair while before I couldn’t take it any more, I’m not convinced he’s all that worried about the reality as much as the perception. Some of the wonky stuff he’s posted simply because it’s got a headline he agrees with is concerning.

His Carnivore book on pre-sale on Amazon - available in April - probably important to him at this point.

[juice]

His Carnivore book on pre-sale on Amazon - available in April - probably important to him at this point.

Seems likely

I stopped following him a few months ago because his “I’m a doctor, and I’ll mention it all the time for the cred, but I’ll just deal with everything as though I’m a sleazy salesman” did my head in.

[RobC]

He seemed honest to me from what I heard on several podcasts but, with his body, he could probably eat marshmallows and crap gold bricks - which doesn’t translate well to what most people do on a marshmallow only diet.

The point is, he may very well be right (he seemed well researched) but I have no trouble ignoring his n=1.

[juice]

I think my preference would be to tell new people who complain of hunger to initially try the high end of the protein macro at 1.5 g/kg of lean mass and to supplement that with fat to satiety, and then if, after two months, they aren’t losing fat to reconsider a lower protein macro.

However, I also absolutely agree that starting with just the “<20 g of carbs” advice takes a big load off the new people.

And that’s the tension between these two things, yeah.

I guess I feel that new people, in general, can handle a certain amount of nuance

Especially recently, the noobs forum is disproving your faith

[RobC]

I think my preference would be to tell new people who complain of hunger to initially try the high end of the protein macro at 1.5 g/kg of lean mass and to supplement that with fat to satiety, and then if, after two months, they aren’t losing fat to reconsider a lower protein macro.

I think this advice for a newbie makes sense after you have confirmed that stress issues, sleep issues and over exercising are not things driving satiety issues (over exercising being a sedentary person that suddenly started a fitness routine along with this dietary change - not an athlete). Those should be fixed first or verified as non-issues (my opinion) during newbie keto fat-adaptation before moving to higher protein suggestions (which makes a good next step if they are all non-issues).