Dry Fasting. Is there any science to this?


(TJ Borden) #115

@Jennifer_Kleiman and @Dan_Dan, I’m loving this discussion, just remember we’re all on the same team. According to most doctors we’re all nuts. :crazy_face:

If we weren’t open to challenging commonly held ideas, none of us would be here.

I still question the benefits and validity of a dry fast, but a couple years ago I would have said the same thing about a water fast, and now that’s something I do regularly.


(Jennifer Kleiman) #116

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. But I think we must agree that there is an absence of evidence.


(Dan Dan) #117

‘A Comprehensive List of Low Carb Research’

Thank you for proving my point the majority are low/moderate carb high protien research and only a few are ketogenic so most of the science has to be extrapolated :open_mouth:

I did several videos and links with sources you choose to ignore them because they don’t fit your standards and thats your right :thinking:

I am happy and confident in my research and n=1 :smiley:


(Dan Dan) #118

Ignoring evidence is not the same as absence :thinking:


(Dan Dan) #119

And that’s a good thing any kind of fasting should not be taken lightly :thinking:


(Dan Dan) #120

From one of the sources I posted above

https://theinterstellarplan.com/2016/03/what-is-dry-fasting/

WHY NO WATER?

The ketogenic diet (KD) is traditionally introduced with an initial period of fasting and fluid restriction. *Since the 1930s it has been known that fluid restricted fasting accelerates ketosis which in turn has positive effects on preventing epilepsy.

University of Nebraska Medical Center
The dehydration treatment of epilepsy pdf

http://digitalcommons.unmc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1180&context=mdtheses&sei-redir=1&referer=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fstart%3D10%26q%3D%22dehydration%22%2B%2Bketosis%2Bmtor%2B%26hl%3Den%26as_sdt%3D0%2C33#search="dehydration%20ketosis%20mtor"


(Richard Morris) #121

There is a mechanistic theory behind fasting humans needing less water.

Firstly we make a little water when we respire, water and C02. fat-oxidation (eg during fasting) generates more metabolic water, than mixed-fuel oxidation.

If you are a zebra finch you can make 6x the water when fasting.

Secondly when fasting we spare protein by not only reducing the rate we use it, but we also scavenging nitrogen from urea to make new amino acids (denovosynthesis). So with fewer waste products, we need less water to make urine.

This was elucidated in George Cahills starvation in man

The fact that we may be able to get by with less water when fasting has, I suspect, been conflated with taking in less water increasing some specific benefit of the fast.

I’ve not seen any studies to support that.

BTW: Before going keto I had already seen hundreds of papers on ketogenic diets, and there may have even been almost 100 in the 4 years since.


(Cameron) #122

There is a medical doctor in Russia who leads cancer patients through dry fasting; here is a .pdf of his book (badly translated, apologies: https://spiritsciencecentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Dr.-Filonov-Dry-Fasting-Translated.pdf


(Dennis Giger) #123

What is the effect on blood sugars?


(Dan Dan) #124

Here is a good read with citation :thinking::smiley:

https://www.perfectketo.com/dry-fasting/#4


(Ryan Robinson) #126

I actually found a study I didn’t see it in any of the comments I looked at before but it this is has alot of the same type of medical or atleast basic values I would look at if I did a study on something like this.


(Bunny) #127

I like Dr. Bergs take on the real science of this: fat solubable fluids (0% water, including fat soluble toxins) within the body are not the same thing as water, so the body being a certain % of water is a MYTH fasting or not? Do we actually think we are flushing something out besides electrolytes et al…?):

  1. Are we drinking water when we are thirsty?(body knows when it is thirsty?);
  1. …or are we purposely denying the body water when it is thirsty?
  1. Why are we drinking water when we are not thirsty? Who said what? Where is the actual science?

(Dan Dan) #128

@Ryan_Robinson good find this study is in the links I provided above with other good citation a good read so I’ll repost

https://theinterstellarplan.com/2016/03/what-is-dry-fasting/


(Bunny) #129

Nice!

EXCELLENT VIDEO visually explaining the 3 types of AUTOPHAGY (from “What is Dry Fasting?”):​

  1. MACROAUTOPHAGY
  1. MICRAUTOPHAGY
  1. CHAPERONE-MEDIATED AUTOPHAGY

(Dan Dan) #130

What I love most about this forum is that myself and many here have grown from

‘please help me I’m lost I don’t understand the science’ …to

‘show me the science’ …to

‘WTF … here is your show me the science plus some you would not have thought of but definitely relates and some n=1 just because I can :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I love this forum promotes the growth of Mind, Body and Spirit :smiley:


(Doug) #131

I’d say not, Bunny - if we take the non-water fluids and put them with the rest of stuff in the body that’s not water, then all that remains - a given amount - will be water, no?

I’m still not sure about the advisability of dry-fasting, but definitely no drinking when doing it. Not sure of the harm of denying water to the body early on, i.e. when first thirst presents itself. Unless there are known issues, there could be benefits - improved kidney function and maybe improved blood circulation within the kidneys, as mentioned in that study?

Even just among the people on this forum, there’s a wide range of how much water is consumed, on average. Unless there is a medical reason like kidney stones, dark urine, etc., I see no rational need to drink when we’re not thirsty. There does seem to be a substantial amount of advice given to drink more than that - to start drinking before one gets thirsty.

My own anecdotal experience is that on many days I’ll just have a cup or two of black coffee, and that may be all the water I take in, especially if not eating.

The flipside was a day a couple weeks ago, working moderately hard in a slightly hot environment, and perspiring somewhat. Not much, a very small fraction of what maximum perspiration is. I got thirsty fast and drank 2 liters of water in an hour.


(Bunny) #132

Concomitant to Dr. Berg’s pouring water on raw bacon to dissolve it analogy; I suppose if I took a pound of sliced raw bacon and squished it between two paper towels, I suppose you would get a little water? Or a fluid resembling water? Or a fat soluable type of moisture?


(Doug) #133

I’d say yes - figuring there’s a little bit of water in bacon, if it hasn’t been heated enough to drive it off. Probably would have to press fairly hard.

There definitely are liquids in the body that are not water. I thought of this when reading your first post, where you mentioned fat-soluble fluids. Then I wondered about emusified fluids, and thought, “Uh-oh, this is going to get messy.” :slightly_smiling_face: If we’re really looking for the water content of the body, then we need to separate the water out from the other stuff in emulsified fluids.

The one emulsifier I know of is bile. Rhymes with chyle, formed in the small intestine with bile’s help when fats are digested. Chyle goes into our lymph fluid along with a bunch of white blood cells, and a LOT of water - just learned that today. Are we mistaking other fluids for water when we talk of the body’s water percentage?


(Bunny) #134

Yes! Bile is like the bodies laundry detergent (emulsifier) to break down fat (another Dr. Berg analogy)!

I think where the confusion comes in, is that we think when we drink water that we are simply water thus we are a certain % water but not so simple, water is in constant ingress and regress through out the body but not it’s primary composition! Like a cup, water does not become part of the cup, it is simply a vessel that can hold a fluid!


(Doug) #135

Okay, I think… :slightly_smiling_face: We’re definitely the sum of many parts, not just one part. There are certainly practically endless non-water things without which we’d be dead. Still, when we’re talking about fasting or dry fasting and refeeding, electrolytic balances, etc., then water is a huge deal.

I think I’ve got a “lot” of water in me, i.e. still a pretty big boy, and I’m tempted to try dry fasting for a day or a very few days. What appeals to me is the notion of “mixing things up,” and some of the possibilities raised by the study - that an increasing osmotic gradient between fluid in tissue and in the bloodstream could cause extra fluid movement out of the tissue, relieving congestion and improving circulation therein. I’m guessing that this almost never happens if we’re totally hydrated or nearly so at all times.

Also: "Among the 6 circumferences measured in this study, WC (waist circumference) changed most dramatically. The total decrease in WC during FWD corresponds to a huge decrease of the abdominal volume within 5 days. Such a massive and rapid volume decrease can hardly be attributed to the reduction of visceral fat. In view of the total weight loss, urine discharge, and the additional insensible water loss, this volume decrease could be mainly attributed to elimination of edema fluids from the abdominal organs. According to these results, the terms ‘visceral fat’, ‘central obesity’, and ‘abdominal obesity’ or ‘adiposity’ used in various reports may need reconsideration. The risks related to increased WC might be related rather to the edema than to the fat tissue of the abdominal organs."

That last sentence - wow. Some serious speculation there, and this is probably the place where people are thinking, “All right, Doug, put down the Crack pipe…” But I do like screwing around with stuff.