Dr. Adam Nally rants against long fasting, Dr. Fung

#61

Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes.

#62

Agreed. I think Dr. Nally would agree too, and is in favor of the natural “fasting” that results from the satiety keto gives you.

(Doug) #63

I don’t think we can generalize about the severity of the feelings of fasting, even for carb-burners. Long before I had even heard of ketogenic eating, fat adaptation, etc., I went for 6 days without eating. This was in 1983. Yes, it was a big change, and there was boredom and hunger, there was also the fun of going into uncharted territory, and nothing even remotely resembling “horrific feelings.” I was fairly lean at that time, 6’ 2 1/2" or 1.9 meters and 183 lbs./83 kg.

Was there “carb withdrawal”? Maybe - there would have certainly been lower blood sugar after a while - but the whole experience was just of not eating, nothing like “withdrawal” and acute symptoms.

I’ve known several people who went more than a day without eating, and not on a planned basis. These are mountain climbers, hikers, off-road bicyclists, winter campers, etc., who ran out of food, got lost, couldn’t get back to civilization as fast as originally thought. Hungry as heck, yes, but I have yet to talk to a single person who really felt bad.

I think there will be individual, personal variation in how we respond to not eating, even regardless of body weight and fat content. If - for whatever reason - the body thinks that severe starvation and possibly imminent death is near, then it may clamp down on energy expenditure to such an extent that the experience is “awful” or “horrific.” I also think that will apply to a very small minority of us.

Ability to go 18-24 hours between meals - heck, I’d say this applies to all of us, fat-adapted or not, outside of infants and those with truly abnormal metabolic conditions.

#64

I think you’re right, but I definitely get some strong hunger pangs those first few days (luckily in waves that I can ride out). That’s why I want to try a 5-7 day fast next. I’m curious to see how it feels for the ghrelin to take a significant dive.

#65

That’s a great idea. Those first 2-3 days are likely to be the worst, but if you keep your electrolytes up (I am popping pink salt crystals under my tongue all day long!) you should really feel good once you get over that hump. And then after the fast, because your leptin signalling will have improved, you will have amazing appetite control.

(Norma Laming) #66

Yes I find it difficult now to eat more than one meal a day, to the extent that lunchtime invitations now cause a problem for me. But gradually after 24 hours, even though I won’t get ravenous, I do get colder and slower. I’ve listened to loads of talks by Megan Ramos and Jason Fung from which I gather that my metabolism should be gearing up, not down. I never feel the near euphoric benefits that some experience. I’d like to change the way my body reacts and perhaps I should eat more at other times, but I do find that difficult.

(Tim W) #67

I have a similar experience.

My hypothesis is that our bodies have not “accessed” stored body fat at that point. It has to “open” another store of energy (stored body fat in some quantity).

I find that after 24 hours or so, I’m cold, I’m often tired, short of temper… Then, after 48 or 72 hours, I pick up and start feeling much better.

In addition, I can be 10 days into a fast, wake up tired, cold, just not feeling it and I get moving, go for a walk, then run, then start lifting weights, and the energy “turns on”. I’ll start lifting weights telling myself, “just two sets, just two sets” and then the fire gets to burning, and I end up having to reign myself in before I’m done.

(Chris) #68

The coldness stays until I finish the fast every time… Metabolism, I’m told, is what generates a lot of the body heat we deal with.

(Doug) #69

It was only on my first 4 to 5 day fast that I ever felt cold - on the third day my feet felt cool, not a bad thing as then they didn’t feel too hot under the covers when trying to go to sleep.

Never have felt “euphoric,” just pretty good. Some periods of perhaps “extra” mental clarity and a feeling of deeper calmness, but I wonder if that isn’t just having more time to think about stuff, not being bothered with mealtimes and getting/preparing food.

There is a “light” feeling that is good to me - just starting to get it now, 36 hours into a fast. I assume it’s from less water retention and that my system is now mostly free from having to deal with food. I really wonder how much of this is mental - I picture the body getting out from under the considerable burden of processing food (in my case a serious burden indeed, so many times that I shudder to think…).

So the body gets a chance to reverse some things, clean itself out, etc. To what extent will we truly feel this? There is probably a component that amounts to me just thinking, “Hey, I’m doing well today…”

(Connor L) #70

Did Doc Muscles ever criticize Jimmy about his fasting shenanigans on KetoTalk? I can’t remember… hm.

#71

I don’t think so, though it was clear they didn’t agree on it completely.

(Connor L) #72

I appreciate his restraint. Jimmy did some crazy stuff, though. hahhaa

(Bunny) #73

The key to this is “intermittent fasting” not extensive prolonged ridiculously long metabolism damaging fasting!

Breaking the glucose insulin spiking continuum is what is being done!

No rocket science needed!

I think that doc wants to sell books!

So simple a cave man can do it! (Lol)

(Rob) #74

Surely per Dr Fung, extended fasts are actually metabolism repairing under fat adapted Keto, rather than metabolism damaging?

It seems to break plateaus, reduce long term insulin levels and resistance, etc. rather than provoking starvation response.

(Doug) #75

From what I’ve seen, some caloric restriction can lower metabolism, i.e. like 1200 or 1500 per day… Get calories low enough, like ~800 or less, though, and people do well there, as in Dr. Roy Taylor’s trials. There is a lot of further research that it would be good to have done on this matter.

For fasting, I think there may be an evolutionary basis for the difference - cut back on the calories some, and the body thinks, “Uh-Oh, food is scarce, better take it easy,” and it puts the brakes on metabolism. With nothing at all coming in, it thinks, “Holy Crow - better not slow things down, we need to get moving and HUNT.” My opinion.

The last time I really felt “revved-up” was all through the night, hotter than normal while trying to sleep, after a day of about 400 calories, just a hunk of cheese and some pork rinds. An individual anecdote, I realize, but quite a few times I’ve been from 0 to 600 calories in a day, and have never felt “slowed down” at all.

(Rob) #76

There’s a lot of research on starving but much of the big studies aren’t ethical or too relevant to modern fasters :flushed: I agree with you about the likely evolutionary predilection to fasting.

I don’t know about there being some step above which you damage metabolism and below which you have a happy fast. I don’t think anyone who is eating Keto, fat adapted and has spare body fat will do metabolic damage at any reasonable calorie level so none of us is a good n=1 for that.

The fact that Dr Fung sees long lasting metabolic healing coming out of fasting and Richard attests that the main way he could reduce long term fasting insulin was to EF suggests fasting has some real benefits.

(Doug) #77

Agreed, Rob - no “on/off” switch, rather, a continuum of change.

That’s a good point. If anything, I think that fears of slowing metabolism and losing lean body mass are overblown, though of course it is possible and has happened for some individuals. Keto often avoids that “worst of all worlds” where metabolic damage is still occurring + the diet is unsatisfying due to calorie restriction. Ugh - I think of some of my past attempts at dieting where I’d be 500 or 800 calories short of satiation; just miserable - no wonder I normally threw in the towel on the 3rd or 4th day.

Definitely. :slightly_smiling_face: Fasting is not for everybody, but the commonality of good results for so many cannot be denied.

(Air Mail) #78

For me, long is the only kind that works.

#79

It is possible that if the person’s blood glucose is high, and especially if their insulin is high, they will not be able to effectively burn fat for fuel, and that might be why they run into some lean muscle mass. I would guess that would be temporary until they burn off the excess sugar and reach a solid level of ketosis. I cannot rely on its accuracy, but I use the Aria scale to track body fat, and the trend was scary for a while when I was doing a lot of fasting, seeing my body fat percentage rise as the weight went down. I also was losing hair. I have recently had it tested and know my insulin level is now lower (6.3 after about 16 hours of fasting - it had been as high as 20) and I suspect it will be easier to burn fat on a long duration fast, but I haven’t tried it yet.

In my experience, fasting is a critical tool for insulin lowering which leads to reversing diabetes and then on to fat burning.

(Tim W) #80

Same for my wife.

She has lost over 80 lbs using fasting/IF/Keto but it’s the long fasts that results in the greatest loss and stays.

I found IF works for me, she’s got more to lose and is more metabolically damaged. I only needed to drop the “last 20”.

This is highly variable but the “right tool for the job” might be:
Keto- weight management, some weight loss in the first few months, mostly from reducing sugar/carbs etc.
IF- Will drop the pounds, especially if working out fasted and one doesn’t HAVE to eat keto with IF (but why not, it seems to expedite the process and keep insulin even lower)
Long fasts- have more than 50 lbs to lose, long fasts might be the most effective

This is all supposition of course but it’s educated supposition.