Continuous intermittent fasting

fasting

(ishaisagi) #1

Hi all, quick question.
I need to quickly lose about 10kg for back pain safety. I’m already ketogenic (5 years now) with levels of 6.6 when fasting.
I want to know of there is any advice against doing one meal every 48 hours. I started doing that and aside from normal long fast side effects everything has been ok. Does anyone know of anything I should be worried about?
Note I’m not metabolically challenged, just need to keep upper body weight to a minimum without exercise.


#2

From all I’ve read/heard over the years, the only thing that sticks out is that they say you can slow your metabolism eating so few meals. But they say this about OMAD as well, but believe when it’s done long term. That being said, I’ve always tried to put 2 days of TMAD between Fast, but those are usually on the longer Fast as well. … I was actually thinking of doing similarly myself, just eating one meal every other day. And I would probably do it for a week to two, at a time. But then just add in some days here and there of TMAD, just to break things up and keeps things changing and from being scheduled.


#3

It’s called OMEOD, some people do that but I didn’t read much about it.

If it works for you, I mean, you lose fat and feels right, I wouldn’t worry about it for a short while but longer term probably slows down your metabolism (maybe not if you eat big enough meals. it would be logical to me that way). But even then, if it’s not very longer term, your metabolism probably can go back to normal quickly, longer term starvation is the real problem as far as I know. But people are so different, it’s good to be careful. I surely would do everything to avoid a slower metabolism or significant muscle loss even if it means I stay fat for years more - but each to their own and if you loses fat at a quick pace, it won’t be so long so maybe you can get away with it just fine.
But it’s just my educated guess from everything I’ve read until now and there was nothing specific about this very thing so it’s extrapolation and guess.

I thought about OMEOD myself (or OMAD with not too short, not too long EF) but my body is against those. I probably would try it for a short time if I could. I probably would take short breaks as I always take breaks from OMAD or having a calorie deficit. It sounds natural to my body and I can imagine it does good to my metabolism and sanity in the rare times when I actually lose fat :smiley: I just try to listen to the signs of my body, it gives good signs. So… I would do it if I were you (as you seemingly can do it unlike me) but if I felt the need for a break, I would have an extra more relaxed day before going back to it. 1-2-3 days extra is nothing in a fat-loss journey.


#4

only thing is will this 1 meal every 2 days fail you and make ya so hungry and not be sustainable and ya crash back worse then when ya started??

we are ALL so diff. in what we can handle ‘thru fast dieting’ and thing is if you lose the lbs fast but in the end this ‘type of tight control’ over your ‘diet goals’ warps ya a bit, in the bitter end, when we all did this type of ‘manipulation’ for fast results, most times it is all backslide and a fail.

THIS might not be you :slight_smile:

I would say…your food on how you eat every day, for like 2 meals per day WILL LOSE these lbs if you keep it constant. You put you on a healthy sustainable long term eating plan that loses the lbs but maybe slower a bit but also sets up your long term lifestyle.

Consistency in eating the right food and we are happy with that food that suits us is the long term key menu ya know.

So I can’t give you a good or bad on it :slight_smile: Sorry. But this is what you can do and if you can do it for a while, lose the lbs you want for your back medical issue and feel great and THEN introduce back a sustainable lifestyle of eating to suit you…yea it will work, but it is very personal on it all.

wishing you the best!


(Bob M) #5

I’d guess that schedule will lower your metabolic rate. Can you alternate with “normal” weeks? Or do you need to do this at all?

Also, does 6.6 = 6.6 mmol/l of BHB (blood) ketones? If so, wow.


(KCKO, KCFO) #6

ADF, alternate day fasting is pretty popular right now,
You might want to check out:

Karen also has a thread on the forums for ADF support.


(Bob M) #7

I like the Wholly Holistic Keto idea, as your body is less likely to become accustomed to it, and I think (hope?) your body is less likely to lower your metabolic rate.


#8

You probably will be after you eat one meal every 2 days for a while! Doing stuff like that destroyed my metabolic rate.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #9

Info I think relevant that you haven’t provided and no one else has yet asked:

  1. Are you consuming approximately the same overall quantity of food/energy as you would normally, but only at a single meal at 48 hour intervals?

  2. Are you consuming only half the overall quantity of food/energy as you would normally because you are not making up the ‘loss’ of the non-meal days?

I may be incorrect, but I think that if you’re doing something similar to #1 and not restricting overall energy consumption much - just normal keto carb restriction - you won’t slow your metabolism much or at all. If you’re doing something more like #2 I think you will slow your metabolism as it adapts to the overall lower energy input. The longer you do it, the longer and more difficult it will take to return again to normal afterwards.

“I need to quickly lose about 10kg…” A 30-day water fast would be quicker than #1 and do less long-term damage than #2. Maybe. Bear in mind that I only do an overnight 10-12 hour IF 3 or 4 times per week and not longer fasts - I’m sure others with more experience can advise.


#10

I got pretty lean last Spring/Summer using ADF. Diet was carnivore. On eating days, I was backloading the calories and consuming everything in a 3-hour window (not ideal before bed but it tends to work for a while). This also meant it was easier to ensure you didn’t overeat on those days. I was also doing a lot of exercise with no issues. I tended to do strength work on eating days and some cardio (HIIT plus LISS) on fasting days.

ADF certainly works but I couldn’t do it longer than a month or so. I also think, due to lockdown restrictions, it was easier to implement the fasting days when they fell on weekends. Now that would be a bit more socially inconvenient.

For what it’s worth, I do plan to trial something similar in January but I am going to shorten the fasting window to 24-28 hours. Basically, on my non-strength training days, I will have steak and eggs upon rising and then fast until the next day.

Personally, I prefer an approach that uses longer bouts of fasting over continuous calorie restriction. It’s faster, more effective, arguably superior hormonally…


#11

I would think most of us would do something in-between if we could do it and would consider it okay (I mean, others, not me might be able to one or another but they wouldn’t consider it worth to do it so they would set the food amount in-between if possible): bigger meals than on OMAD but not twice as big! We want a bigger deficit (well it’s not the same to eat twice as much half as often but probably close if the food is dense and not too much for the body to use it well…?) but eating half is just asking for damaging our metabolism, at least temporarily…
How big meals one is able to have on OMEOD is another thing, that’s the part where most of us just should give up the idea :smiley: I already have problems with my OMAD meals. I can eat big meals but they diminish on longer term OMAD (if I do everything right, maybe not but this far it always happened) and it probably would be even worse on OMEOD. I’ve heard a lot that longer fasts easily triggers smaller meals right after.

But if the OP tried and it worked, that’s promising. Too little food is still risky, sure. Some people accept the risks when they don’t see a better option, though…


(Bob M) #12

I’ve reached the conclusion that I have to feast between fasts. Trying to limit calories wouldn’t be a good thing, and I think lead to lowered BMR (basal metabolic rate).

Plus, even if you counted calories exactly (which I personally don’t think is possible), you can’t take into account hormones such as growth hormone, or lowering or raising of BMR by your body.

This is a random study showing how complex the body’s response to fasting is:

Fasting study + hormones

Back when I started fasting, I was never concerned about feasting. But Dr. Fung advocates feasting. I’ve been feasting lately, such as ensuring I eat more the day before a fast. After the fast, I don’t worry about it too much, but before a fast, I do.

I think this has helped, but I’m only averaging one 36 hour fast per week, and I don’t make every week.

In the meantime, I’ve hit the highest number of repetitions for my body weight training on many exercises and have continued to lose the weight I gained trying The Croissant Diet, as the belts I had to buy after that are down by 3-4 belt holes. I’m back into all my size 36 pants, though I’m still outside most or all of my 34s.


(Bob M) #13

Or another one, this one by Dr. Fung himself:

Diet doctor’s GH and fasting article

Note both of the studies I cite were longer, 5 day fasts. Not sure what happens with the shorter-term fasts.


(ishaisagi) #14

Update,
I’ve been doing it for 2 weeks now and no issues. However, instead of a pure water fast I allow myself cream in my tea, so there are calories from mostly fat but some carbs as well coming in. When I eat a dinner I reach satiety faster than usual and end up eating a lot less. I’m mildly carnivorous (I have dairy as mentioned and after the dinner I have an almond-erythritol butter biscuit as dessert).
I’m losing weight and feel the urge for exercise (which I cannot do due to injuries). Before I used to do regular IF but that didn’t work for me as I would load on protein during meals without satiety. I’m worries about what you say about metabolism rates…not sure how to avoid that.


#15

You don’t if you’re in a constant state of calorie restriction. Protein isn’t going to put weight/fat on you. Have you considered PSMFs? You still get to eat, and fat loss is about the same. What’s up with your back? I’ve also got a back that hates life but have rehab’d it to the point where I’m doing deadlifts and squats again and it’s in the best shape it’s been in and as pain free (as It get’s for me) in the last 20yrs). Compressions and crappy discs I assume?


(ishaisagi) #16

Yes, and I used to do lifts etc up to 2 years ago when a tennis elbow started and to date no treatment is helping…combined with constant foot pains (undiagnosed but probably also tendon damage that won’t repair). Surgery to back helped nerve pain but muscle spasms are still unexplained and unavoidable. Pilates used to help until the elbow thing, but only help recovery time from a spasm, not reduce spasm frequency…
I’ll google what psmf is. I’ve had great success with keto after my surgery (dropped from 100kg to 72kg in a year) but my appetite got me back to 85kg while eating just keto and carnivor for the last 5 years.


(Take time to smell the bacon) #17

The use of the word “weight” as a euphemism for “fat” causes some conceptual difficulties. So, the 17 kg that you gained, was that lean mass or fat mass? If it was lean mass, then it’s probably not worth worrying about. If fat mass, then it is possibly of concern.

There are problems with using only the scale number as an indicator—how are your clothes fitting, these days?

PMSF stands for “protein-sparing modified fast.” You may or may not find it more or less helpful than a well-formulated ketogenic diet (how’s that for weaseling, huh?). Bear in mind that a ketogenic diet bears a strong resemblance to the fasting state, but with less hunger.


(ishaisagi) #18

Ok, got it.
My way of knowing I’m carrying too much is by

  1. Back ache
  2. Pants that won’t fit
  3. Look in the mirror when standing sideways.
    I did not check my weight until 5 days into this new regime and am only doing it as a motivator (until my pants fit again…oh, and for the Brits here, I mean trousers). Biggest problem I have with my back is that right pants (even elasticated waist sports pants) trigger a spasm on my hip muscles, which starts a chain reaction with my back.
    As for the protein sparing diet, I read on it and that is what I did after starting keto. It worked but the constant calorie counting isn’t appealing anymore and I’m looking for a more of a lifestyle change. I think once I drop the urgent weight I’ll play with day on day off (unlike now where I only eat dinner every other day) which will reintroduce breakfasts (and bacon!)