Cant get back into ketosis

newbies

(Chris) #41

So going on keto fixes insulin resistance which then begs the question will ketone levels rise higher the longer your in ketosis since your insulin resistance is dropping?


(Ken) #42

Michael,
I’m not trying to “Quibble”, but there are a few points that need clarifying. When I say demand driven, I’m speaking of the body producing ketones rather than glucose within the context of a secondary energy pathway. All within the context of Lipolysis.
Ketosis vs. Gluconeogenesis.

When you speak of Mankind being in ketosis most of the time I agree. Mankind evolved on meat and fat. A much better term is Lipolytic, because ketosis is.only one part of fat based nutrition. The largest energy source during Lipolysis is fatty acids created when the lipid molecule breaks into that and glycerol, with the glycerol being used as the substrate for both ketosis and gluconeogenesis.
.
I was a fan of Loren Cordain starting about 20 years ago. My limited background in Anthropology is what helped me to easily accept the concept of fat based nutrition. I tend not to use the word Ketogenic for fat based nutrition as its not descriptive enough.


(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #43

Everyone’s specific experience differs in details due to multiple individual variables so no one necessarily experiences the exact same sequence or time frames. Generally speaking, however, after starting keto, blood ketone concentration tends to rise for a while. This is due to synthesis of ketones by the liver being out of synch with utilization of ketones by cells and organs. Because new energy pathways must be established, cells and organs do not use ketones or fatty acids efficiently at first. Thus, a lot of ketones being synthesized by the liver, acetoacetate, ends up just floating around in the blood stream doing nothing much. Some of the unused acetoacetate converts to β-hydroxybutyrate, which is its more stable ‘storage’ form, and some disintegrates into acetone and CO2. The β-hydroxybutyrate is what you measure with your blood tests.

What is called ‘fat adaptation’ refers to cells and organs learning how to use ketones/fat more efficiently. Thus over a period of weeks and months the synthesis of ketones by the liver becomes more in synch with their utilization by cells and organs. In addition, as cells and organs learn to utilize fatty acids their need for ketones decreases. So overall, blood ketone concentration tends to decrease since whatever acetoacetate being synthesized by the liver is being utilized immediately or very quickly and not stored as β-hydroxybutyrate.

But different strokes for different folks applies here. Some people never measure very high ketone concentrations, some do even well after being fat adapted. Some fluctuate up and down. There are so many variables involved you can find someone somewhere who exhibits every possibility.

Insulin plays a significant role here, of course. As insulin resistance decreases, one moves towards a healthy state of lowered glucose and insulin concentrations in the blood. It doesn’t necessarily translate to higher ketones, although for some it does. At least for a while.


(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #44

Hey, Ken,

I think you’ve introduced a very interesting issue, to wit: ketosis::gluconeogenesis relationship. My concern is that it’s going to disappear down a memory hole if left only in this topic. I think it warrants its own topic.

So here’s my proposal: please create a new topic (show me the science) stating your understanding of ketosis and gluconeogenesis in the context of overall lipolysis. Please cite any references you think would be helpful to the discussion. This will attract many more forum members to the ideas you have expressed here. Hopefully amoung them will be those who are well-informed and able to address the issue with more extensive knowledge and input. Thanks.


(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #45

@05147ae533bd743d8b98 You may find this article of interest:


(Chris) #46

Another question. I may start another thread. I ate at 5. I had 3 eggs, zucchini mushroom onion medley and 100g of chicken thighs. And some salami. I just checked and my blood glucose is 5.3 mmol. And my ketones are .3 mmol. Two hours after a meal is that normal? Also why am I nkt getting inyo ketosis its starting tk upset me even the first time doing keto I went into ketosis faster.


(Shane) #47

That might depend on how long the piece of string was that held that medley together.
And what your normal numbers are.
Yesterday I had a pan of bacon and 4 eggs for breakfast at about 3:30pm (2nd dot)
dinner of Beef mince, mushrooms and cream sauce (cream, gorgonzola and parmesan) around 4:45 (4th dot) (10g or so of carbs, I ate 200-300g of cream making the sauce). Someone bought home cocktail frankfurts and I ate 1/2 a dozen or so of them from around dinner time to 11:00pm and cheese too (maybe another 10g or so of carbs).
I peaked at 5.1 some hours later. The red lines are normal high and low limits for BG.
Graph shows noon to midnight yesterday.
BG%20little%20boy's%20and%20dinner

I used to produce heaps of ketones after meals and or BG spikes. BG of 5.3 would be fairly normal for me now after a meal like that and, though I only use pee sticks, I rarely show ketones after a meal now. Normally now only a day or 3 into a fast.


(Chris) #48

Ya I checked again 4 hours after my bg was 4.7 and ketones .5 so guess I hit keto just in time to sleep.and very back at .1 tomorrow lol


(Mom to kids who eat bacon & butter) #49

I’ve had meals where my ketones actually go up after eating. I’d have to see about eating the same meal several nights in a row to see if its reproducible…


(Ilana Rose) #50

There is not a fruit or a vegetable to be had in any supermarket that humans ate during the bulk of our evolutionary history.

My rule for fruit is I only eat what I pick that is growing wild in summer. Yesterday I had a small handful of strawberries. The same the day before. The biggest ones are the size of my pinky thumbnail. The strawberries you can buy in a supermarket are the products of hundreds of years of human directed breeding.

I’m not saying never to eat them. I’m just saying that if you had two or three of those big strawberries 7 times in a two week period of a given year you are probably nearing the way our ancestors might have had them.

Then after that a couple of weeks of a few blueberries, then raspberries, then blackberries and then a few very small apples maybe.

After that it’s all meat and animal fat.

I don’t think the fruit is at all necessary or even healthy btw. I just don’t think that most people will suffer much negative effect if they honestly consume them in those sorts of quantities.

My “only eat what I pick wild” rule prevents any serious overconsumption.


(Consensus is Politics) #51

Lmao… well, I wouldn’t call it a punishment. Maybe it would feel like it to a carbonian, but not to the ketosapien. I hVe done 70+ hours fasts without even realizing it. Just wasnt eating or snacking, busy doing things to keep me preoccupied and not think about food. Easy peasy, lemon…

But when make that mistake and have a high carb meal, I simply go right back to keto foods, keep it as carb free as much as possible (steak and eggs, bacon, etc.) and remind the body this is real food. I rarey skip a day of ketone preduction. It might stop for a few hours while insulin is high, but it kicks back in pretty quickly for me.

Keto Vitae!


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #52

Addiction is a bitch. And I speak from experience, alas!

Depends. Your serum glucose should drop as soon as you stop eating carbohydrate and your insulin/glucagon ratio should drop back down with it. It is possible that something is wrong with your test strip, so your meter is not showing ketones. But if you are not eating carbohydrate but are still breathing in and out, your body has to be producing ketones.


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #53

This.

It’s one of the reason that human populations that adopted agriculture experienced a notable decline in health. Archaeological evidence shows that the transition to agriculture results in shorter stature, bone deformation, tooth decay, and other chronic illnesses that hunter populations do not suffer from. See Michael Eades’ presentation on the health of the ancient Egyptians:


(Full Metal Keto) #54

If this is true I don’t understand your post title “Can’t get back into ketosis”.


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #55

Not necessarily. Ketogenesis is stimulated by glucagon and inhibited by insulin. But the key is the insulin/glucagon ratio, which determines whether the metabolic milieu is primarily anabolic or catabolic. Since we need both anabolism and catabolism to occur regularly, there are complex mechanisms regulating this.

Don’t chase ketones, chase metabolic health. Weight normalization is merely a side effect of metabolic health, anyway. The problems resulting from hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia are well-known:
advanced glycation end-products, sytemic inflammation, hypertension, increased blood coagulability leading to stroke and myocardial infarction, fatty liver disease, cognitive disability—to name just a few.

Still want those carbs?

These are not mutually exclusive. The real opposition is glycolysis versus fatty acid metabolism. The latter occurs only when carbohydrate intake drops low enough to lower the insulin/glucagon ratio. Gluconeogenesis is necessary when dietary carbohydrate drops, or we would keel over and die (literally; our red blood cells would starve to death, and the brain would then expire from oxygen deficiency). So gluconeogenesis occurs routinely whenever glucose intake (i.e. dietary carbohydrate) is too low to supply the need.

This is the same condition that makes ketogenesis and fatty acid metabolism necessary, since gluconeogenesis provides only enough glucose for those cells that absolutely need the glucose. During the fat-adaptation phase, our muscles limp along on ketone bodies, until they can re-ramp up the fatty acid pathway and start using it. Once fat-adapted, our muscles actually prefer to metabolize fatty acids, in preference to glucose and even ketone bodies, sparing the latter two for use by other organs. The brain does particularly well on ketone bodies, and as mentioned, red blood cells require glucose. Hence, ketosis and gluconeogenesis are partners; it is glucose metabolism that is the antagonist.

Given the ill-effects of hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia I mentioned earlier, I don’t really understand the reason for wanting to ingest any kind of quantity of carbohydrate—apart from addiction, of course. I fully understand that. But although I may still occasionally yield to my addiction, I fear carbohydrate more and more, the more I learn about nutrition. :bacon:


(Chris) #56

So two weeks ago I carved up on Saturday. Fasted 20 hours ate dinner keto and that night was in ketosis. I figured sweet this will work. This week I did the exact same thing and I’m barely back into ketosis 5 days later. That’s why I had the question


(Chris) #57

I dont view it as an addiction anymore. My wife often has chips or ice cream beside me and I dint need it anymore. I want it cuz it tastes good but I dont have that deep need. But I get to live one life and thinking about being so utterly confined to a diet to never ever have these (yes horrible) but amazing tasting foods just depresses me. Luckily I can and still stay healthy as long as I find the proper length of time between these days or meals to maintain good health


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #58

I believe it depends on what you mean, precisely, by “ketosis.” Nutritional ketosis is aribitrarily defined by Phinney and Volek as a serum β-hydroxybutyrate level of 0.5 mmol/dL or above, because that is the level at which they generally begin to see the benefits. But ketogenesis has to be occurring, regardless of how much β-hydroxybutyrate is circulating in your bloodstream, or you’d be dead. Stop chasing the number, and chase health instead. The amount of β-hydroxybutyrate circulating in your bloodstream bears no relationship to the amount actually being produced in your liver and being consumed by your other organs, okay?


(Full Metal Keto) #59

Well, it sounds like you have it all worked out, you’ll have to find what works for you. If you give things a chance maybe you won’t feel depressed about this lifestyle. I was a Chinese Sichuan cook for over 20 years and a Baker too. Rice, noodles, Dim Sum, and I loved pizza and bread too but now I don’t miss them. Will I indulge in some of these foods I used to eat? Yes, you don’t have to ban any food for life. Just don’t eat them “today”. I focus on the delicious keto food that I can eat rather than feeling depressed about what’s not keto and no longer part of my daily lifestyle. That makes things a hell of a lot easier. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #60