Zoiks! Out on a limb and hanging on by my supplements!

(Vic) #61

“If it doesn’t have a mother with 2 eyes, its not food”. A definition of one of my personnal boundaries.

#62

I’m not sure I believe that carbs in the form of fruits and vegetables serve no purpose. My main dietary goal is to maintain bone and muscle health, so I have been worrying lately as I see how hard it is to reach bone nutrient requirements on keto – much less carnivore – dietary plans. And if you further restrict cheese, where does the calcium come from? I’m not willing to wait until I fall and fracture a bone to find out.

So, as of now, I am aiming for 5 ounces of cheese daily, along with a variety of potassium/calcium/magnesium rich fruits or vegetables (whether or not allowable on a keto plan); I use magnesium supplements; and I am still deciding on which potassium salt supplement to use.

I don’t think it’s possible – based on individual stories – to know the long-term effects of failing to reach scientifically demonstrated mineral requirements day after day, year after year. Some say the requirements are different when you are on a keto or carnivore plan, but how do you know that? Degenerative disease doesn’t start to show up (for many) until age 60s or 70s, and after many years of exposure.

I’m sure there are formulations of carnivore/keto eating (involving eating bones, marrow, blood, organs) that meet nutrient requirements, but I don’t think many of us “Westerners” can easily adapt to this WOE – with @Carnivoor being the exception! :grin:

#63

@Wendy, there is tons tons to read on this forum and all carnivore forums why we don’t ‘need fruits and veg’ in our lives ever…just sayin’ I understand this is your opinion and I respect that but this is a carnivore eating thread, and I just can’t debate why we don’t eat those plants in this thread but darn there are tons to research why we don’t. But if you love your fruit and veg and do well on it being a keto plan or lc type plan that suits you, more power to you :slight_smile:

@robintemplin
yes I get what you are saying cause I am that personality also. I do best on straight and narrow and tight boundaries. Why I failed miserably at just low carb eating, all I did was get confused making those stupid useless and tasteless ‘pretend favorite food substitute’ recipes and I went bonkers doing that…just give me a fry pan and meat. Done HAHA

@Carnivoor
You nailed it Vic…carnivore to the ultimate!

(Edith) #64

I am allergic to dairy. I do take calcium supplements either as Citrical or when I’m feeling industrious I grind of egg shells and use them as my supplement. 1/4 teaspoon of egg shell is approximately 640 mg of calcium.

I also think that new carnivores needs are very different than long term carnivore needs. I went through a lot of oxalate dumping during my initial trial. Oxalate dumping depletes minerals and can cause increased vitamin needs. I believe the problems I ran into during my trial were due to vitamin and mineral deficiencies as a result of the dumping. But, I do believe those needs could/will change over time on carnivore.

I joined a Facebook carnivore group with many long term carnivores. They did not allow any discussion of supplements. I believe that was a disservice to carnivore newbies who may need supplement support as their bodies detox or shed oxalate.

Right now, I NEED calcium, magnesium, salt, vitamin c, and b-vitamin support. I have found my joints are definitely better on carnivore, so I’m giving it another go along with my supplement support. I don’t know how long it will take, but it’s possible I may not need them as time goes by. For now, I need them, but I need them on keto, too.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #65

My personal belief is that your worry is overstated and is perhaps based on the dismal health of the general population since the promulgation of the dietary guidelines. A lot of people eating a well-formulated ketogenic diet find their bone density improving, since by eating to satiety they are finally getting enough food, with enough protein to be added to their bone matrix, enough fat to fuel the repairs, and a small enough amount of carbohydrate to prevent insulin from interfering.

As for poor health on a carnivore diet, a study of Maasai eating their traditional diet of meat and milk, done in the 1960’s, found their health to be extraordinary, especially in comparison with their mostly-vegetarian Kikuyu neighbours, or their city-dwelling relations who ate the standard Western diet. And the tribes of the American Great Plains, before they adopted the white man’s diet, were remarkable for how many of them lived to be a hundred or older. Their traditional diet was almost exclusively meat and fat. Dr. Michael Eades has a fascinating lecture (available on YouTube in many incarnations) on how the bones of hunter-gatherers are much healthier and stronger than those of agriculturalists; to the point where an archaeologist looking at the skeletons hardly has to do a radioanalysis to find out what the people ate.

There are enough people around who have been eating carnivore for ten years or longer, and whose health is fine. Vilhjalmur Stefansson, the Canadian explorer, adopted an all-meat diet while living among the First Nations in the Arctic during his thirties, and lived to be 82. And the Bear is another famous person who lived a long and healthy life as a carnivore. He’d been eating carnivore for nearly forty years at the time of his death, and would probably still be with us, if not for the car crash.

So a carnivore diet may very well work for you, if you give it the sort of try that veterans recommend. If not, you can always return to a more customary diet at any time.

#66

yes I feel that ‘getting thru adaption time’ into carnivore should be discussed more on the forums also. But alot of the old timers did come into the plan, possibly? healthier thru a low carb journey heading into carnivore and they ‘did better thru adaption’ and that no chat on supps kinda sprang from it maybe in a way that I also think new carnivores will require and do require sometimes more support.

But they I think why this chat isn’t allowed as much on many carni forums is that people guess. I guess I might need mag. and take higher doses then one needs maybe? Or they suck down this vit or this mineral cause they ‘think’ it will help when in truth alot of times it is getting thru adaption just eating the meat and giving it time without falling back on the old thoughts of thinking one needs this vit or that and have no clue if they really do…but yes, I also think some do need some support but in truth, not many do. Alot of adaption time for some is uncomfortable but time does fix it but for some, like you personally, you found you did do better on this or that and helped you alot…but you are also one of those wiser people who kinda know that path to follow and to not take lightly all the supps out there and just start sucking down junk.

but yea it is a fine line, I hear ya on that.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #67

Remember that a lot of the research on what we need, and how much, has been done since the dietary guidelines started affecting people’s health. Also, many people would rather take a pill than reform their eating habits.

Given how well so many carnivores do without supplements, I believe we should conclude that either most people’s needs change when they stop eating carbohydrate, or that meat alone carries all the vitamins and minerals most people need. There will probably always be people with genetic variations that give them problems, but I doubt there will be very many of them

(Edith) #68

I did go into carnivore after three years on keto, but going all the way into carnivore was still a big adjustment, particularly where the oxalate dumping was concerned. It’s amazing what a difference going from 20-30 grams of carbs a day to almost zero can make.

I understand that the carnivore groups may not want to let their members discuss supplements but some guidance about what could be happening to newbies who are having terrible adaptation symptoms wouldn’t hurt. The newbies could possibly be guided to legitimate resources such as the Trying Low Oxalate group or Sally Norton for some examples.

(Edith) #69

I do believe that what we may be seeing in carnivore groups is based upon a selection effect. The long term carnivores are the ones who didn’t run into problems. The people who did have problems ended up giving up and moving on to something else. Those people will not be heard from in a carnivore group.

(Linda ) #70

I think the original carnivores are not unlike us though in that like us they slowly eliminated stuff that was causing issues and formed groups with ppl who were having similar issues… but like with all groups of ppl there are always going to be ppl that don’t fit into the exact same profile as others whether it’s that they dont want to eliminate something or they react to something or need extras …Then along comes somone that finds if they tweaked this, added that then the program worked for them better…but instead of saying well you could try this and see… ppl start saying it has to be added it has to be tweaked and starts a fad that helps some, but hurts others so they set rules to stop the confusion and try and keep it simple…I see ppl in some groups trying to change things like with fasting and intermittent eating and fats high vs low., psmf…

I just saw a post from Judy cho recently where she is already starting to see some of the effects of ppl doing psmf for more than a couple days a week…its affecting hormone lvls and other negative reactions.
I also think its good though for us to use trial and error to get the best plan for us that def includes different needs as far as vitamins and minerals fats and times of eating go. because we are not all the same and we don’t have to be…

#71

@VE, yea I kinda feel that drift that those with lesser med issues or coming into zc did have less tough adaption times, but darn I walked in pretty easy and I did have some weirdo times I had to adjust thru…there was a time in zc I thought of quitting LOL but long terms just said keep going, you ain’t gonna die, ya just gotta get thru your personal adaption time and yea, I did.

but also long terms did have issues…but once we get years under our belt they are not a day to day, not something we chat all that much about. I think we focus on all the good we live with day to day vs. the hell we walked thru to achieve it.
like Kelly gaining alot of weight and freaking her out. And on ZIOH there are more long term people that I read who had one heck of a hard walk thru and made it…but I think like you, the majority had it a tad easier but we also didn’t quit so?

and who we are coming into the plan is big. Like some have issues with the longer term things like oxalate dumps cause they don’t dump all at once ya know, they can hit later down the line as the body heals and purges etc. Oxalates truly can be that crazy issue for some and you never know when a release of them can hit.

So true and I think more about that being medical issues but you are right, supps and vits of all kinds come into play here. Sometimes we have to let the body wreck us a tad and feel icky before the good of our changes hit, a supp is not always the answer ever. So true, I like that point.

@Azi
good info in your post!

#72

Why do you think what works for you would work for others?

Many people start with keto because a bad relationship with food made them somewhat unhealthy. For many of them, obsessing about food won’t be helping to find a way out.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #73

@Corals

I don’t necessarily think what works well for me works for everyone or even anyone else. It works for me. I don’t think I’m particularly unusual so I suspect that what works for me might work for others as well. But I let others make that determination. If they try it and it works, great. If not or does not. I don’t care. That’s all. I don’t understand why you drew any conclusion otherwise.

Folks who obsess about food, for whatever reason, are going to obsess about food no matter what they do or don’t do. Measuring, weighing, recording is not going to cause them to be obsessive. I’m not telling anyone to measure, weigh and record food - I’m just saying that I do so and I am not obsessive about food.

You made the presumption that measuring, weighing and recording food intake is obsessive. I’m simply pointing out that in itself it’s not. If you can’t see the difference, that’s your problem.

#74

Oh God, I did Pritikin for a couple of years; used to go to the Santa Monica Center. I got to the point where I was starving most of the time! I could only eat so much salad, and with super low fat and low protein (10% each), Pritikin was the antithesis of keto. Keto was not a thing back in the 80’s!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #75

Yeah, back in those days, all we had was Atkins. And we walked ten miles to school and back—uphill both ways!

#76

In the 80s I had no idea low-carb is a thing. Or in the 90s. I only knew HCHF. I don’t even know when I heard about low-fat first, surely not when I was very young… It probably wasn’t often mentioned that time but even if it was, my hearing is very selective if it’s about fat. I can’t really comprehend low-fat, it’s some very weird style to me where one pretty much avoids all good food :smiley: I am biased I am aware.
I am sure many people in my country still have no idea about keto…

#77

loved reading this :slight_smile: Mine was LA Weight Loss with going to the center, being on a ‘diet they put on me’ and I did fantastic til I starved every single day just like you. And I had to pay for that misery…wee…Not sustainable but damn it works to starve ourselves down that crappy scale HAHA til the day it flips and we gain it all back LOL

(Lauren Hinsman) #78

Welcome to - As Peter from Hyperlipid calls it - “The Carnivore Trap”. I understand all of your sentiments. I was actually very active on the ZC subreddit and couldn’t figure out how to be perfect enough, so I quit. Someone’s dietary intake cannot always be separated from their personality. So, yeah… I totally get it.

As for supplements, I had not taken ANY supps from the early 00’s until last year. I only began supplementing because my FIL wanted me to increase D3, etc.

I have an unreasonable loyalty to Robb/Niki Wolf, so I enjoy the LMNT, though I’m not certain of the impact. Too much and I feel fluffy. When I skip it, I am hungrier, perhaps?

Anywho, if you pump the brakes on supps, just do it one at a time. Then, you can better assess the impact (or not).

My hubby and I joke how much we hate how much we love our diet LOLOL! Whatever, he is relatively free from IBS and my head is clear and metrics are decent. I’ll take it.

#79

Low/no fat was HUGE back in the 80s in SoCal, which is why Pritikin was so big. It was 80% carb, 10% fat & 10% protein. But you had to eliminate all sugars and processed food, so what you were left with was mostly salad and some cooked veggies. No dairy, no salt…I’m surprised I lasted as long as I did.

#80

My insurance actually paid most of the Pritikin fee! Of course, that was back in the 80s when medical insurance actually paid for stuff!