Would this fast concept work?

fasting
(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #1

Hi,

I am a sports science student and am currently working on a 20 day water fast.
Now I am at the start of day 4 and i am feeling great!

I am also busy with more information and research about fasting and I am coming across many controversial issues.
In particular the difference between a dry fast, water fast and protein sparing fast.
Now I have a question for any more experienced fasters among us who can help me assess the next theory. Would really appreciate it if you can explain the assessment from good knowledge.

Review points that I would like to see again:

Safety.
Time of effectiveness certain fast durations.
Atrophy.
Feasibility.
Fat loss effectiveness.
Detox effectiveness.
Effectiveness of combining multiple fasting methods.

The crazy idea is to combine the three to bring the benefits of all together in one long fast. Part of this is to do 7 days of protein sparing fasting after every 8 days of water/dry fasting and maybe a few light workouts to prevent atrophy as much as possible.

It would look a bit like this:

day 1-4: Water fast.
day 5: Dry fast.
day 6-8: Water fast.
day 9-15: Protein sparing fast. (possibly light resistance workouts?)
day 16-22: Water fast.
day 23: Dry fast.
day 24-30: Protein sparing fast. (possibly light resistance workouts?)
day 31-36: Build up according to eating schedule on target weight-based values.

If it is safe enough, I would like to try it myself and correctly document the results and the process.

I would love to hear from you.

Sincerely,
Roald Jurrian Kamman

(Bunny) #2

My opinion:

I think you can achieve the same exact same result with fasting (even with some carbs) intermittently and consistently rather than stressing out the entire metabolic system for extended periods of time which it is potentially capable of, if push comes to shove.

Trying to do the rigorous and barbaric Russian and German experimentations from way back when; that was actually a learning process taken to extremes and no longer necessary now; that we have a snap shot of what can be achieved intermittently rather than extensively!

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #3

I sincerely hope that you are just joking. there is no way you can achieve the same cell renewing benefits of an extended water or dry fast with intermitted fasting. The results are different in every measurement. Besides I was not asking for any opinions. I am looking for an educated assessment.

thanks.

(Bunny) #4

Ok, Iā€™m sold!

Show me the research?

Always searching for new measurements?

Printer is ready!

#5

Which is what you got. The ā€œopinionsā€ of a forum loaded with people who fast regularly IS an educated assessment as we actually do this stuff.

Please share the results of your testing, because that contradicts what Dr Fung says about the results of the thousands that have run through his IDM program. Him and Megan have stated over and over that over time the IF vs longer fasts seem to wind up with the same results, just takes a little longer from the IF crowd. If your talking about something very specific like Cancer treatment thatā€™s itā€™s own world.

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #6

here is a few.

http://drmjefferson.com/science-behind-dry-fasting/


http://www.toivobreathing.com/Hump-36.en.pdf


https://www.healthscience.org/education/fasting/fasting-research

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #7

yes it is supposed to be a faster way to achieve a goal. I agree that consistency and a good eating plan are always a part of moving towards a healthier motive. I think there however is still room to expand upon the longer fasting periods.

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #8

Im not trying to invalidate or make an essentially ā€˜ā€˜betterā€™ā€™ way of fasting i am merely interested in the preservation of muscle mass in the extended fast and increasing the speed of the process through adding dry fasts within the extended water fast.

(Bunny) #9

I like to fast in contrast to body fat, muscle mass and weight ratios and can do it quite extensively (dangerously) to achieve a deeper state of AUTOPHAGY but I also use very special methods and extensive precautions to insure that I donā€™t kill myself doing it.

That is why I use keto fat bombs (MCT oil & coconut fat) when fasting, infused with a vast array vitamins, minerals and trace elements especially branched chain amino acids (leucine takes on the role of insulin to prevent a fatty liver and inhibit cortisol spiking etcā€¦), green tea, non-fortified nutritional yeast (thiamine) wheat grass and other vitamins, mineral water and electrolyte water!

Keep in mind when your in Ketosis your already in a ā€œfasting stateā€ and constantly in differential levels of AUTOPHAGY.

I find it easier to achieve the same exact benefits of EF AUTOPHAGY without extensive fasting by using a glucose meter as a fuel gauge (IF)!

After all what can go wrong:

  1. Vitamin B1/ Thiamine Deficiency, Benefits & Foods https://draxe.com/thiamine-deficiency/

  2. Malnutrition-Induced Wernickeā€™s Encephalopathy Following a Water-Only Fasting Diet ā€œā€¦Initially identified by Carl Wernicke in 1881, Wernickeā€™s encephalopathy (WE) is a critical condition of neurological dysfunction resulting from a deficiency in thiamine.1 This defi- ciency leads to the inadequate supply of thiamine to the brain and the subsequent development of brain lesions.2,3 These brain lesions impede normal neural-motor signaling, causing mental impairment and the related traditional clinical signs and symptoms of WE. If WE is not diagnosed and treated in a timely manner, the brain lesions will become permanent, and Korsakoff syndrome will arise.2-4 Korsakoff syndrome is a chronic, permanent, and potentially deadly condition eviidenced by short-term memory loss and psychosis.4 ā€¦ā€ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.944.4309&rep=rep1&type=pdf

  3. LONG FASTS: DANGEROUS OR BENEFICIAL? ā€œā€¦Even fasts of a few weeks or less can have dangerous consequences. Fasting puts two different types of stress on your heart. First, it cannibalizes cardiac muscle for fuel. The human body does everything it can to conserve muscle during a fast, but inevitably some muscle will be sacrificed at the beginning of the fast. After a few days, the body switches over to using fat, but researchers have discovered that protein (muscle) utilization actually increases again later on, even though fat stores are still available. This protein includes the muscle in your heart: weaken this too much, and heart failure will result. Strict water fasting is also a risk for heart failure because during a fast, the bodyā€™s intracellular stores of minerals vital for cardiac function, like magnesium and potassium, are depleted, even though serum levels remain normal. The results of this cardiac muscle loss and mineral deprivation can be tragic. During the 1950s and 60s, fasting was used as an experimental treatment for obesity, and several patients died (many from heart failure). Other reports of people dying during long fasts include more cases of heart failure. More recently, in 2010, a woman in Florida died after 21 days of fasting. Other fasters die of infectious diseases that they simply donā€™t have the energy to fight off without adequate nutrition. In 1978, for example, a man named William Carlton died of pneumonia at a fasting center after fasting for 29 days in an attempt to cure his ulcerative colitis. He was 49 years old, and in normal health other than the colitis. Worldwide, infectious diseases are actually the most common cause of death among starving people, because an immune system weakened by malnutrition tends to give in before heart problems start to show. This is particularly common among children who go on (or are forced to go on) long fasts. https://paleoleap.com/long-fasts/

  4. Korsakoff syndrome is a chronic memory disorder caused by severe deficiency of thiamine (vitamin B-1). Korsakoff syndrome is most commonly caused by alcohol misuse, but certain other conditions also can cause the syndrome. ā€¦ā€ https://www.alz.org/dementia/wernicke-korsakoff-syndrome-symptoms.asp

  5. Long Fasts: Worth the Risk? https://www.marksdailyapple.com/long-fasts-worth-the-risk/

  6. Re-feeding Syndrome (very rare) https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-and-re-feeding-syndrome

(bulkbiker) #10

Hi Roald
I think the first question we need the answer too is what is your goal?
What is your start point?
You are what age? Normal weight? Any medication or medical conditionsā€¦

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #11

ā€˜ā€˜The human body does everything it can to conserve muscle during a fast, but inevitably some muscle will be sacrificed at the beginning of the fast. After a few days, the body switches over to using fat, but researchers have discovered that protein (muscle) utilization actually increases again later on, even though fat stores are still available. This protein includes the muscle in your heart: weaken this too much, and heart failure will result.ā€™ā€™

This is one of the points im especially interested in. the switch into a proteĆÆn sparing fast could potentially prevent any or most loss of muscle. In theory it is meant to prevent the heart and other muscle tissue from becoming too affected by atrophy. My concern however is that since you would already be at such a deficit and returning into an even greater deficit after the porteĆÆn sparing part that your body would quickly switch back to using muscle regardless of the 7 days of proteĆÆn sparing fasting.

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #12

Hey Mark,

Well i donā€™t have just one goal.
My first goal is to lose my last pounds in my weight loss journey that has been over 4 years long now.
I lost quite a lot and have loose skin so the healthier skin gain from fasting an extended duration is also especially interesting to me.
Next I am looking to just expand my knowledge on the subject and maybe create my own technique. I intend to major in sportsnutrition and become a high level personal lifestyle coach. Any dieting techniques just generally interest me. I know that the most important things is a healthy baseline and consistency but since i have established this for myself and i want to learn i donā€™t mind experimenting with my own body and health for the sake of knowledge. I generally enjoy the process.

(Ethan) #13

Actually, in the latest Obesity Code Podcast, Dr. Fung says the exact opposite of what you just said. Dr. Fung says that if you want to lose weight, then fasting with some amount of fat calories really makes no difference. That is, it doesnā€™t break your fast if you have 200 calories of fat on a fasting day. Dr. Fung goes on to say that nobody knows what will inhibit autophagy. He recommends that you only water fast (nothing else except maybe salt) to achieve it, since it is possible that even introducing coffee could break the fast for that purpose.He does say in general that extended fasting has faster benefits than intermittent.

(Doug) #14

Roald, this is misleading - at the beginning of a fast weā€™re really not ā€œburning muscle,ā€ weā€™re using up glycogen stores, or, if on a ketogenic diet and already in fat-burning mode, we really switch to using stored fat rather than ingested calories, and itā€™s not ā€œafter a few days,ā€ itā€™s right away. (If one is insulin-resistant, that will hamper the burning of stored fat; however - I know of nothing better to lower insulin resistance than fasting itself.)

If somebody is fairly lean, without substantial fat stores, then eventually the body will consume muscle to maintain life, but this is an extreme case. Iā€™m not saying that absolutely zero muscle will be consumed - Iā€™m saying that almost always itā€™s not nearly enough to matter. Other than in extremely rare cases, it will be mostly other stuff that is consumed, as far as losing ā€œlean massā€ - it will not be muscle. Our skin makes up roughly one-sixth of our weight, for one example. When we lose weight and skin cells are consumed, we excrete nitrogen, and sometimes people say, ā€œA-ha! Protein is being burned.ā€ Yet this is not muscle loss.

Iā€™ve lost over 50 pounds/23 kilograms by fasting (up to 10 days), and have never felt or seen any evidence that Iā€™ve lost muscle. In the course of my work, I occasionally move fairly heavy things - lift gas cylinders that are ~ 150 lbs/70 kg and move around full barrels weighing 400-600 lbs/180-270 kg. Iā€™m 58 years old and have been doing this job for 33 years, and I have never felt any different - not weaker or like Iā€™ve lost any muscle while fasting.

I realize thatā€™s just my experience, but there are cases like the man who fasted for 382 days, going from 456 lbs/207 kg to 180 lbs/82 kg, and maintained close to that weight for years afterwards.

He was fine - itā€™s not like he ā€œburned up his musclesā€ or ā€œconsumed and weakened his heart.ā€ Our bodies are not going to do that, certainly not in fasts of the length we are talking about on this forum, almost always. Iā€™ve read of Russian studies on people who starved to death - even with this very extreme case, they reported only a 3% loss in the mass of the heart.

Fasting is not good for all of us nor recommended for everybody. However, to maintain that "fasting means you will use up your muscles, including your heart, and this will result in heart failure" is just nonsense, in my opinion.

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #15

Hi Doug,

First of all thank you for your extensive and informative reply.

I intended to quote the part from atomicspacebunnyā€™s reply.

I am aware that the starting depletion is in the glycogen storageā€™s of the body in the muscle, blood and liver.
Did you lose 50 pounds in 10 days or over multiple different fasts? How many fasts did it take you to lose that much? And how many days are in between your fasts?

The studies with the heart failure also included mostly individuals suffering from obesity. I think that their heart failure might have something to do with the fact that they had an unhealthy cardiovasular system and their level of training/strength was simply not high enough for the stress an extended fast puts on the body.

It could be a case of overtraining. In bigger individuals muscled or fat the heart has to work harder. Including cardiovascular impairments like artery clogging etc. The mere stress that the heart usually has to endure is only sustaneable by the overflow of nutrients entering the body. (just a theory)

But the stress that is put on the heart without any nurtrients could have similar effects of overtraining. Overtraining has been shown to result in a decrease of performance in athletes. With every time you train whilst being overtrained you get weaker in stead of stronger. in theory only making more micro tears in the muscle tissue. The overtraining of the heart of a heavy individual in a fasted state could potentially conclude in heart failure. Again this would all depend on the personal conditions of mainly the cardiovascular health and experience with training.

In this case i would be more interested what you think about adding a dry fast for 35 hours every few days over a longer period of water fasting?

I am personally not too worried about losing muscle even though i gained quite a ton in the last 4 years of consistent training. But it would be an interesting theory to test or give as an option to potential clients.

Again thank you for your reply i would not have thought of these theories otherwise. I must admit i am improvising most of these theories from my likely limited knowledge but i really enjoy it it teaches me a lot.

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #16

Hey EZB,

Thanks for your reply.

very interesting. I remember something about caffeĆÆne actually increasing the rate of fat loss. canā€™t remember where but i do use caffeĆÆne pill supplements from time to time. even during my current fast.
I would like to do my own testing on this. Maybe i will drop my dreams of becoming an awesome lifestyle coach and become a nutritional scientist hahaha. I seriously enjoy this.

(Roald Jurrian Kamman) #17

I must be honest i did not like your sarcastic looking comments at first. (could just be my interpetation)

But i do appreciate the longer well formed reply with sources and research.
Including the way you like to fast was also interesting.

(Ethan) #18

Iā€™m interested in your findings if you go through with this. However, I am not not aware of any reliable means to test for levels of autophagy. Thatā€™s why Dr. Fung recommends playing it safe and having only water for such a fast. Nobody really knows what will affect autophagy. In the podcast, he mentions that there are very sensitive receptors to fat and protein and carbs, and maybe more, that may turn off the switch for autophagy.

(Doug) #19

Roald, yes - I saw that it was just a quote, and I didnā€™t mean that it was your statement. Most of the time, such things originate with people who have a financial reason - they want to sell you a product - food or information - that will allow us to avoid this almost-always-imaginary horror (heart damage/failure from fasting).

I think itā€™s much the same as what many people think - that fasting is necessarily not good for us, that itā€™s ā€œstarving ourselves.ā€ The truth is that for many of us - especially those who are obese and/or metabolically in bad shape - it is a very good thing.

I lost 50+ pounds over 5 months, in about 15 separate fasts. 3 days to 10 days in length, most of them 3 to 5 days. A very loose and disorganized schedule - maybe 2 days between fasts, maybe 2 weeks. From all Iā€™ve read, most of us are limited to about half a pound per day of fat loss, even with zero calories being ingested.

I know almost nothing about dry fasting. Iā€™ve seen some pretty ridiculous claims about it, and then some things that made some degree of sense to me. I donā€™t knowā€¦ If there is a demonstrable reason why I should not drink water (and in my case, black coffee) then Iā€™d like to see it.

At my top weight, I was 340 lbs - Iā€™m sure my body was more than half fat, but I donā€™t think I have had any heart damage. Perhaps Iā€™m wrong. If somebody has a really unhealthy cardiovascular system, then maybe fasting would be really hard on them and bad for them - here too I donā€™t know, and think it would be on an individual basis.

After a few days of fasting, my heart rate is lower. I attribute that to less digestive effort and to reduced blood pressure/less fluid from not eating, from taking in less salt and anything else that makes us retain water. My gut feeling is that fasting does not really stress our hearts - at least not for the duration of most peopleā€™s fasts. Here too - I really do not know. When does a heart start to suffer from lack of nutrients - those that the body itself cannot supply?

(Bunny) #20

My mother says (sarcastic and intimidate people) the same thing! Lol!

I am still learning this stuff, but I do care about the well-being of everyone and want people to be equally aware of any dangers that could surface, however that is rare unless a person goes into this thinking they donā€™t need nutrients when fasting or have known or unknown health contradictions but also equally aware of the benefits if done correctlly which are vast and astounding as has been my experience!