Why not avocado?

(Sondra Rose) #144

The strict folk drink still or sparkling water and sometimes Bone broth.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #145

It’s hard to tell. Militance in nutrition leads to many strange ideas

(Bev Anne Moynham) #146

The strict carnivores don’t use seasonings because they are plant-based – just meat and water (and maybe salt).

(Peter Schmitt) #147

I would say, there is no typical strict carnivore - exept from those, who even don’t use salt. But you are right, the carnivore-police would say, that you are not carnivore, if you use a pinch of pepper, ect.

(Genevieve Biggs) #148

I haven’t been around recently, and I’m not keen on read 140+ replies. However, the reason ZC does not include avocado is simply because ZC excludes all plants as food. Newer Carnivores are using the term Carnivore as distinct from ZC because they include some degree of foods like nurs and avocado. So feel free to use the term carnivore, but the very community which originated the Zero Carb movement have defined Zero Carb as Zero Plant long before Keto was popular.

As to why avocados are not excepted is because they have starch and fiber which are not optimal for digestion. Just because you may mot immediately feel the adverse effects does not mean that it does not have any. I, personally, suffer immediate adverse effects from avocados, although most do not. The fiber alone is enough for it to be excluded. Have you read Fiber Menace?

And just because we have not discovered many explicit toxins in avocado yet does not mean that they don’t have any. Modern science is still developing, as much as we would like to think otherwise. If not, LCHF would be mainstream advice. But we still have so much to learn about diet and nutrition. We know that meat is optimal for digestion. We do not, however, have enough evidence that any or all plants are. In the absence of evidence one way or another, it is safer to exclude than to include.

Furthermore, plants have a tricky way of making you want to eat them. For some person, eating an avocado may lead them to eating more and more carbs, “healthy” or otherwise. That is why although some person may be able to limit their avocado consumption and have the resolve to limit their intake, most cannot. So ZC veterans advise and ask not to promote it, as most cannot maintain it.

It is not out of legalism or pride that we advise these restrictions. It truly is out of Love and concern for others’ well being. NO ONE is making money from promoting ZC. (If anyone is, they are conmen). Our lives are not diminished if you eat some dark chocolate or avocado. Our pride is not hurt or damaged. Our own endeavors are not hindered or squashed. Our feelings are not hurt. BUT, we know that you are hindering your own progress and healing when you tweak the protocol. Zero Carb works. We know this from a collective of years of experience, backed by science but not dependent upon science. Some people take longer to see success because they are more broken, but it works for everyone. Not everyone works for it, but it works for everyone.

If you want to eat avocados and dark chocolate and call yourself carnivore with some plants, be my guest. But Zero Carb is a specific name allocated by individuals who spend their time and energy to help others heal themselves by eliminating all plant foods. This is not harsh. This is not mean. This is clinging to objective truth and sharing it in love.

ZC 17 months

(Genevieve Biggs) #149

@BevAnne Strict veteran carnivores do use seasonings, they just don’t rely on them.

(Elizabeth ) #150


(Anne T Hawthorn) #151

Yes and don’t forget chicken gizzards, boil in salt water til soft and tender - takes hours but so worth it!! I’ve always loved organ meats - -sweetbreads (thymus gland) braised in butter or duck fat, or pork brains, with or without scrambled eggs, are amazingly rich and a tiny bit sweet. As my mom used to say whenever someone said yuck to a food - “Good, more for me.” :steakcake:

(James) #152

I think you hit the nail on the avacado; FRUIT (some fruit) has evolved to reproduce by incentivizing animals to spread the seeds. So the SEEDS are often toxic, but not the flesh.

Fruit would have been eaten by prehistoric man in season, once a year. We would likely gorge on it all and get white fat bulked up for the long winter ahead.

So I, too, want to hear some science on avacado - is there any specific toxin etc. in avacado that would discourage a carnivore from consumption?

I am not a “clubber”, merely someone looking for the absolute best possible diet for Northern European men. I will sacrifice my “Carnivore” badge happily if it makes nutrition better. Lacto-Ovo-Ava-Carnivore is fine :wink:

(bulkbiker) #153

Ever seen an avocado growing in Northern Europe outside of a hothouse?

(KCKO, KCFO) #154

They can grow in Europe, maybe not Sweden, but certainly in Spain and southern Italy or Greece. They grow in California and Florida climates, so anything similar in Europe would work.

(bulkbiker) #155

Hence the emphasis on Northern Europe…which is specifically not Spain or Italy or Greece.

(Norma Laming) #156

I bought and cooked some sweatbreads recently and I found them dull and boring,. A real non event :slightly_frowning_face:

(Adrian ) #157

So basically, this sentence alone, if we accept it, proves that Carnivore is an ideology.
I’m gonna call myself a Carnivore if I’ll be eating 90% CV and nobody can stop me

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #158

You can call yourself whatever you want. Opinions are free. Facts are not.

Note: Strict Carnivore/Zero Carb. 100g of avocado is 9g of carbs, 7 of which are fiber. It’s not an animal, and it’s not zero carb. So, you can call yourself a carnivore, and you are a carnivore, but you are not a strict carnivore or zero carb if you are eating avocado, as far as anyone understands the term.

And yes, it is an ideology. Sorry.

Signed, not a Strict Carnivore, but rather an 80% of the diet carnivore.

(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #159

I wouldn’t describe carnivore as an “ideology,” because the two most prominent carnivores I know of, Amber O’Hearn and Dr. Georgia Ede, both state that they found themselves forced into their way of eating as a means of dealing with specific health problems. Vegetarianism and veganism do constitute ideologies, however, because they are based on a priori assumptions or beliefs that have nothing to do with diet or health. Those ways of eating may be healthful for certain people, but they certainly are deleterious to many.

LCHF/keto eating, by contrast, is totally science-based. This way of eating is certainly healthful for most people, and few, if any, will find it deleterious.

Of course, it behoves me to admit, in the spirit of full disclosure, that my belief in keto/LCHF is not only science-based, but has now also taken on aspects of ideology as well. :bacon::bacon:


This statement by Amber may help.

(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #161

Thanks, Carol! I had this passage particularly in mind when composing my earlier post:

Words like “pure” make the mistake of conflating the need or decision to stick to a strict definition of a diet with morality. Moreover, they essentially deny the existence of people who have an acute response to the diet as defined by those people . That is, the definition of the carnivore diet is one that excludes almost all plants with the exception of certain things like coffee, because this is the diet that a group of people got together to talk about how it helped them specifically to follow it.

For those that find the post Carol linked to of interest, Amber has a longer version on her blog:

(Elizabeth ) #162

(Adrian ) #163

Ok, so there is Keto: high-fat, adequate (moderate protein), low carb, on one side, and there is Carnivore: high-fat, medium - high - very high protein, zero plants.
Where do you think a ‘Ketogenic Carnivore’ diet fits, and do you think it has benefits. This would be high-fat, moderate - high(ish) protein, so an >85% carnivore diet.

I have been ‘Carnivore’ for almost 2 months, most of the time 100%, but some days, I’ve had an avocado, or some coconut oil here and there… Which makes me ‘Keto carnivore’, so to say.

I know there has been research around Keto and it has more of a scientific backing than Carnivore. Which is what makes me more drawn to it.
Is Keto Carnivore (aka high protein Keto) a smart compromise, or it is the worst of both worlds?