Virta Health - How Much Protein on Keto


(less is more, more or less) #29

Interesting. You were working on a hunch, and not a physical sensation of any kind, then, if I understand you correctly. The article is clearly not a call to track but to set daily limits. I live on the high end of their recommendations, and I expect I shall continue to.

I’d be curious if others have a way through “listening to their bodies” know they’ve had too much protein. Maybe it’s as simple as the satiety signal?


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #30

In the chart, yes. That makes it easy to account for what your eating.


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #31

A hunch, exactly. I get an IR this fall with my cardiologist so that will be helpful. Knowing fasting insulin relative to BG will help me better understand.


(less is more, more or less) #32

Nice. I have my GP annual in a few weeks, and my Dr. Westman visit the following week. I’ve asked for lipid panels, but one of the two may decline that request. Would be nice to know but I’m not on pins and needles about it.


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #33

My cardiologist is getting a ton of tests for me. Comprehensive lipid panel, many inflammation markers, liver, IR (fasting insulin, BG), some genetic testing and more. This is standard for new patients. My retired cardiologist did not do much in terms of testing.

Good luck. I hope you get the testing you want and everything turns out great.


(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #34

So, just to share some n=1 data…

I’m 5’2" and about 114lbs

Last night I ate a “bunch” of protein, basically double what I’ve been eating. Normally my protein intake had been in the 45-55 range

Last night we went out to eat, so I had to guesstimate on the macros.

BG: 76, BK: 2.9 (around 9:40pm)

This morning: BG 97 (within 45min of waking), BK 1.2

I’ll check again in the mid afternoon to see what it looks like

ETA: Around 2:50p BG 92, BK 1.4
Interested to see what it is like in a few hours. For me, I think it was too much protein, but it’s was sure yummy.

ETA 2: around 7:45p BG 79, BK 1.2


Almost 6 weeks Keto and no weight loss :(
(Running from stupidity) #35

I guess that’s when I stop eating. Other than that, no messages from anywhere about too much protein, so I"ll keep smashing it down.


(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #36

I wish I could eat bunches of protein and keep my ketones high, but it doesn’t seem to be working for me, especially with no real exercise


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #37

That might explain that quiet far away voice I heard somewhere in the recesses of my mind as I tried to stuff down yet another Vienna Sausage: “Go ahead, make my day.” :wink:


(Bunny) #38

…that is why I was pointing out the differences between whey protein isolate and whey protein hydrolysate

…NOT advocating to eat this or that…just giving some more info on the varying contents between the two and what it does…

Just because your eating meat does not mean your digesting it, low stomach acid and/or digestive enzymes like protease and factors like that may explain a lot, and if your not absorbing the nutrients in the food your eating then maybe it is not a good idea to “avoid” something your doctor may tell you to do, especially when it comes to geriatric nutrition? (e.g. sarcopenia in acutely ill geriatric patients?)


#39

Yes, Mark’s Daily Apple recognizes the difference between healthy subjects and hyperinsulinemic ones too. The part about hydrolysate being less(?) insulinogenic is a bit unclear to me though. He states “Consider this study, whose authors gave either whey protein isolate or whey protein hydrolysate to subjects 30 minutes before a pizza meal. Subjects given whey protein isolate, but not hydrolysate, reduced post meal blood glucose and insulin levels, and ate less pizza.” Which implies isolate is better than hydrolysate? But the link he provides is no longer working so I can’t tell what it says in a context other than pizza. Isolate is plenty insulogenic without carbs.

The other potentailly negative thing I can think of regarding whey hydrolysate in a ketogenic context, other than an insulin reaction, is that it contains high levels of aspartate which may be used in the reversibe transamination of oxaloacetate (OAA). It is the depletion of hepatic OAA which allows for ketone bodies to be generated, rather than just continuing the normal Krebs cycle.

Glutamate + oxaloacetate :left_right_arrow: α-ketoglutarate + aspartate

Great point! The elderly can show decreased stomach acidity (see The special risk to juvenile and elderly humans section…) I also think a lot of people treat chronic heartburn with antacids or PPIs that change our stomach digestion in a way that is counter productive to meat digestion.


#40

Kresser is on target with how a (very) low carb or keto approach alters the equation when looking at fasting glucose and HbA1C. Masterjohn is also a great resource for different variables that can alter A1C from a true indicator of 3 month glucose average. The other Masterjohn, I know I’ve seen before and I need to look at (or listen to) again to separate out what he’s saying causes obesity and hyperinsulinemia as opposed to what to do about it once it has already occured with multiple possible causes.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #41

Not precisely, but the tables are based off the old Metropolitan Life Insurance tables that used to be posted on the wall of every doctor’s office. There are actually six charts, three per sex, and which chart you use depends on your body-frame size, which is figured off the length of your forearm, I forget the details.

The correlations between height and weight are based on actuarial data, so the weight ranges are descriptive, not prescriptive, in that sense, and the way Virta apparently intends them to work is that you find your height in the appropriate table, pick a weight that seems appropriate from the range, and from there, figure out where in the recommended protein range you fall. The protein recommendation is Virta’s contribution to the data; the Metropolitan Life charts were merely height and weight.


(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #42

That’s interesting, because the met life charts give me 13 more pounds than the reference weight chart does.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #43

Raubenheimer and Simpson claim that all mammals, including us, have an instinct for how much protein to eat and pretty much eat to that level. If the diet is abundant in protein, then total caloric intake will be lower, since it will take less to satisfy the protein instinct; if more abundant in carbohydrate relative to protein, it will take more calories in order to get enough protein.

Ted Naiman was wild about this hypothesis for a while and has a couple of interesting videos about it, though he has since moved on.

The human average, btw, seems to hold protein to around 15% of calories, which would be just over 90 grams/day for someone whose energy need was 2000 calories.

ETA: Ninety grams of protein is about a pound of steak, BTW.


#44

I know Phinney has used this weight-goal strategy in the past. Maybe since Virta is offering their services to health care providers as well as being part of an ongoing study, results that please insurance companies in a way they already understand is a plus for them.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #45

He has said that they don’t want to get into the question of telling people how much they should weigh. That’s why they are careful to call it “reference weight” and not “ideal weight.” It’s merely a reference for determining how much protein to eat. I guess the MetLife charts offered a convenient, familiar source of data.


#46

I’m just envious of the implications from the chart that 4’10’’ men and 6’4’’ women can apparently eat all the protein they want.

In seriousness tho, protein for me is usually so self-regulating that I don’t put much stress in wondering if I’m eating too much. Unlike with carbs, when I hit my limit of steak or chicken wings or whatever, I’m done.


(Jim O'Conner ) #47

Here’s my problem: satiety.
I’m 61 years old, so sarcopenia is a concern. I’m 6’2", 170lbs/77kg. 3-days a week resistance training. I’m a lean mass hyper responder.
Here’s an example of how I eat:

Protein 175 grams 22.4%
Net Carbs 15.2 grams 2.6%
Fat 260 grams 75.1%

Too much protein for ketosis even if the percentages are good?


#48

No. See Amy Berger’s blog post about nonsense and fearmongering regarding the role of protein in low carb or ketogenic diets.