Very interesting N=1 trying to test that Sat Fat causes weight loss

(Jeff Henderson) #61

After coming off 3 or 4 days of Christmas carbs and up some pounds also from (vacation a week before didn’t help) I’ve started to get back to low carb and I’ve been having two Cacao and butter coffees during the day. I plan on starting the group fast in a couple days just not sure if I should continue the Cacao butter coffee every day or just during feasting days. Appreciate anyone’s opinion.

(PJ) #62

Alright.

  1. I use cocoa butter in fat bombs sometimes. They are more appetite killing than the versions I make without them. I’m not looking at the recipe but basically: toss CB and coconut oil into a small pot and melt it on low-med heat. Add a mix of lemon and lime juice, a no-carb sweetener (I found that swerve powdered worked well), and a little bit of things like dried minced orange peel, lemon peel, and dried minced kafir lime leaves, those three things do a lot for the flavor in the end. Mix that stuff in the melted oils, and then pour it into silicone pan molds. The best size for me is a fairly thin little flat disk. Ideally make it fit in your mouth but not be too thick. Chill. Keep in freezer. Not too long, they freezerburn.

  2. Cocoa butter is really hard but it melts very fast.

  3. I have a hard time eating enough calories most the time so I have a lot of experimentation in eating a lot of added fats (as I am not a big meat-fat fan) and satiation. When I eat fats like store mayo (soybean oil mostly), with cheese and garlic, I can eat probably 4000 calories a day if I wanted. When I eat fats dominantly just cheese and a little bit of other things like pepperoni, I can eat about 2200-2500 calories a day. If I am eating cocoa butter based fat bombs, I have a hard time eating enough, even adding them to other high cal foods. Often I plan them to “fill in” my macros, and end up eating a couple and I’m just too damn full to eat the rest of them, and they melt next to me while I don’t eat them, time out and blow the macro number for the day.

All this to say that it’s an uncontrolled retroactive non-experiment, but I’m willing to go out on a limb and say that for me at least, cocoa butter is more satiating than coconut oil + cream cheese which is what I used at first; and more than CO+CC+small amount of butter which I used next; and definitely more than mostly PUFA+cheese.

So that blogger Brad is selling stearic acid you know. I think 2/1 is the avail date. $12 for 2# I think it was.

I have some cocoa butter. I am hoping, though, to afford some beef tallow before long, and make a point of using that more often.

I’m thinking maybe I could try coffee with cocoa butter, cacoa, sweetener and heavy cream, as a morning dessert (the only way I like coffee, and usually cold, but that won’t work with cocoa butter I don’t think!), and see what that does for appetite just out of curiosity.

(Jack Bennett) #63

I’m getting kind of intrigued about cocoa butter. I saw it at Fresh Thyme for about $14/lb so it’s kind of expensive relative to butter or coconut oil, but it might be worth an experiment… :grinning::test_tube::alembic:

#64

Well this thread reminded me I had some cocoa butter in the cupboard and have been adding it to my morning homemade latte with MCT oil and some raw milk and sometimes butter. It is very delicious and satisfying. I’d like to double the amount of the CB, but it’s a pricey fat (for good reason), and I’ll need to justify a bulk purchase somehow. Apparently cocoa crops are struggling due to severe weather - chocolate shortages are anticipated, etc.

The joy of chocolate
(Jack Bennett) #65

I find MCT easy to handle from the lifestyle point of view, since I add it to my protein shakes (along with egg yolks :grinning::fried_egg:). I think the challenge with hard fats (for me) is how to use them. Fat bombs and other treats/desserts seems like a good option.

(PJ) #66

I could not find the link to this thread (no brain, no pain) so began another on this topic, sorry. Maybe the mods can merge them.

I wanted to put the list of links to the “step-through” of the theory on that blog because it’s not obvious from the blog itself and not from his linkage in many cases. I guess I will copy it here.

Fire in a Bottle: Humans as Oxidative Vessels

The ROS Theory of Obesity from Brad Marshall at fireinabottle.net
~based on the Protons theory by Petro Dobromylskyj high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com

He didn’t put it all in one doc, it’s in very short simple blog posts, so here’s the list of them in sequence.

He suggests reading this series first even though it comes after the other on the blog itself:

fire-in-a-bottle
intro-to-oxidation
the-oxygen-catastrophe
superoxide-an-unlikely-hero
meet-your-antioxidant-system
two-elegant-experiments-demonstrating-that-ros-is-the-signal
summary-of-the-intruduction-to-life-in-a-bottle

That was about the ROS detail, then there’s the theory about fats that ties into it:

the-ros-theory-of-obesity
the-mitochondria
a-highly-conserved-molecular-bottleneck
physiological-insulin-resistance
this-is-what-fat-burning-looks-like
saturated-fat-causes-physiological-insulin-resistance-in-humans
unsaturated-fat-prevents-physiological-insulin-resistance-in-humans
the-amount-of-polyunsaturated-fat-in-the-modern-american-diet-fattens-up-mice-without-additional-calories
long-chain-saturated-fat-causes-fat-loss-in-mice
butter-causes-a-high-level-of-available-energy-8-hours-after-a-meal
the-loss-of-scd1-prevents-obesity-in-mice
the-body-fat-of-obese-adults-is-highly-unsaturated
ros-is-satiation
the-three-countries-study

(PJ) #67

This content is copyright to Brad Marshall, for whom I am erecting a small shrine in the corner. If he’d put it in one file or even had better navigation for this series I wouldn’t do this. But I put the 21 posts that walk through the theory - which is Peter’s theory at Hyperlipid - into a single PDF for my own sanity/reference (can be searched, also). Posting here just in case it convinces someone to read his work who wouldn’t have done so via a ton of separate links.

fireinabottle.net-The ROS Theory of Obesity-merged21posts_vB.pdf (2.5 MB)

(Windmill Tilter) #68

This is really wild stuff! Thank you for pulling this together into one place and posting it as single document.

I’m still wrapping my head around it and have no idea if it’s true or not, but I’m pretty sure it’s worth reading. It certainly explains a lot of things that don’t make sense otherwise. Probably the most interesting/puzzling thing I’ve read since The Obesity Code three years ago.

@OldDoug I think this is right up your alley. Have you read this content by Marshall? You’re about as well read on the topics of metabolism, insulin resistance, etc as anyone else I know. I’d be curious to hear your perspective.

(Doug) #69

Ha! Nick, I saw it, and it’s interesting, but I haven’t read a word. I will, though, eventually…

I’m such a plain “vanilla” case of insulin resistance that I really never look for other stuff, but there’s certainly a vast universe still out there that we don’t comprehend.

#70

Marshall is the Croissant Diet spare-tire eliminator guy - who left his scientific job at the Berkeley Drosophila Genome Project in order to become a pastured pig farmer (maybe even being a supplier to the artisanal salami world, Creminelli, etc). I will have to check out his blog more.

(PJ) #71

A friend and I have been emailing back and forth about this. I’d like to put what I wrote her in a quote here. If anybody sees something I have misunderstood (because I am no biology genius for sure) I’d love the critique.

Separately: I did an experiment. I can only drink coffee like a dessert, not black. I’d like to drink some in the morning and have been considering butter coffee but honestly I don’t much care for it and coconut oil seems like it floats on the top, it just kinda turns me off. But I want to ingest cocoa butter and it’s a bit diff texture so I thought I would try it. To hot coffee I added melted cocoa butter, some quality cocoa, some powdered Swerve (stevia+erythritol), and some heavy cream and some unsweetened vanilla almond milk just to light it up a bit more. It was actually very good. And it did not have the ickiness I associate with my various butter/coconut oil prior experiments.

Yeah… my brain’s summary was kind of like:

“The more saturated the fat the better,” and if the fat in the meal one eats is not saturated “enough,” then both the fat and most the glucose (which the body turns into triglycerides) is mostly all going to store in fat cells , and then a few hours later you’re hungry because all the energy is gone into storage.

I think this concurs with the carbs/insulin hypothesis. The difference is – or rather something the C/I simply doesn’t know or address – is:

But if it’s saturated “enough” that it creates a sufficient number of ROS (reactive oxygen species), the fat cells will (and note this is a spectrum, not a toggle ) turn their ‘intake’ toward ‘off’. This will

a/ not store most that fat in the fat cells, and

b/ leave it in the bloodstream where that energy continues feeding you.

So you didn’t add fat, plus you stay satiated for way more time.

Hence you’re likely to eat less, but still feel good, and still have all your body organs get the energy they need (not be starving).

Pure stearic acid (like the manufactured product you can buy in a bag) is the most saturated. For foods, for saturated fat content, we have cocoa butter , then beef , then butterfat (and things made with it, like ghee) or things made with either/both (like chocolate).

But sugar will interfere with this trigger in its own way, so eating good fats + sugar (most chocolate) would be pointless (I guess would override or prevent the trigger). Major antioxidants interfere with this, so taking a big dose of vitamin C with dinner would also be pointless (negate the trigger) and I’m guessing those should be taken at other times.

MUFA fats (olive, avocado) from other research seems clear does not cause the damage of PUFA. However it also doesn’t create the ROS of SFA, so will store promptly like PUFA will.

Other animals than cow/bison have very poor fats now due to their feed, and their inability to convert it to SFA (the guy who wrote that blog is a scientist formerly and a pig/chicken farmer currently btw), so, sadly, it’s like PUFA even though it should be SFA/MUFA since that’s the default for animals.

But then again, chicken does not have very much fat esp if you are eating chicken breasts. And poultry does not store much fat internally, that’s why you can buy duck fat in a jar, it’s pretty easy to get the fat from them since it’s not marbled into the meat like with beef. What is on chicken breasts one can usually cut off. Overall there’d be very little fat in the meal. I suppose in that case one would just want to add fully saturated fats to the meal – maybe in a side dish or a sauce (or even a drink).

(Kristen Ann) #72

Curious, what do you mean by this? How is it the most saturated? I know there are other saturated fats with longer carbon chains than stearic acid.

Is he claiming that all long chained saturated fat promote ROS insulin resistance at a cellular level? What about the study that shows stearic acid C18:00 promotes mitochondrial fusion (good for you) but palmitic acid C16:00 does not?

Grains lead to fat livestock, they have excess PUFA. But what about wild game… they have low PUFA but their fat content is still ~30% MUFA. Also fatty plant foods have a good amount of MUFA too.

Was there a study that backs this up? Or did Marshall infer this from something?

Not trying to be critical here, just genuinely curious as these are things I think as I’ve been eating beef fat to try to get into remission from health issues.

#73

Well, because this stearic acid thing is compelling, and because I love the taste of cocoa butter, I went looking for best online bulk pricing. Found a mix of shea/cocoa butter/mango butter (MB similarly has high stearic acid) - and like others sold as bodycare products, it says not for internal use but I don’t believe them.

Looks good to me! And apparently still smells cocoa-ey, but would taste less cocoa-ey - $10/lb

And straight cocoa butter, 2lbs for $25 - which I’m leaning towards because it tastes so so good in my coffee

As I’ll only use a heaping tblsp as medicine in my morning coffee (using lots of pastured ghee and butter otherwise, along with coconut oil for certain frying) it can be argued to be economical for the long run…?

(Windmill Tilter) #74

You can buy cocoa butter intended for human consumption from a reputable supplier of organic foods on Amazon for a lower price per pound. Whole foods is a decent option as well.

Even “food grade” is a very low bar. That means it’s safe for it to come in contact with food, but should not be consumed as food. If it’s not even food grade and the supplier explicitly states that it’s not for human consumption, it might be prudent to trust them on that! That’s my 2 cents anyway.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #75

Be careful with products sold to the cosmetic industry, they often have other - non edible - stuff added to them. Also, unlike food they don’t have to say squat on the label of ingredients they can claim proprietary. So the best place to see if they’ve added stuff is their advertising. Yes, that’s where they can claim to have added ‘enhancement’ ingredients. But if it’s really just 100% ‘pure’ cocoa butter it’s probably OK, just might not have been handled in a food-safe manner during processing.

(Windmill Tilter) #76

This passage struck me as particularly interesting. It made me wonder: if supplementing stearic acid in the fed state facilitates lipolysis, would supplementing it during extended fasting work in the same way? Fung always says that eating a bit of fat doesn’t inhibit interfere with fasting, but is it possible it could facilitate lipolysis if our own bodyfat is largely PUFA?

I’m not arguing that this is the case BTW, I’m just asking because I don’t totally have my head wrapped around the ROS model to begin with.

the-body-fat-of-obese-adults-is-highly-unsaturated

The fat composition in the morbidly obese subjects would be far too unsaturated to
produce a large superoxide response at the bottleneck in the mitochondrial electron
transport chain due to its ability to produce sufficient FADH2 during fat oxidation.
Therefore, the fat cells of the morbidly obese lack the ability to flip the switch and turn on
physiological insulin resistance. ROS is the signal. Their fat cells will be knocked out of fat
burning mode and into fat storing mode easily and quickly by responding to any increase in
insulin levels.

#77

Well, Healthworks organic has the best deal on CB, and that’s what I’m gonna get anyway :blush:

(Windmill Tilter) #78

No worries, totally up to you obviously. Just trying to be neighborly!

The link you posted for Healthworks CB was $25 for 2lbs and the Anthony’s Organic CB intended for use in chocolate making in the link I posted was $15 for 2lbs. I’m sure there are plenty of good places to get good quality CB.

(PJ) #79

@Don_Q you linked to cocoa nibs which I promise are a completely different thing than cocoa butter :slight_smile:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #80