Veggies and Carbs

(Jon) #1

So I keep reading around the internet, and keep coming across people saying that you ought to eat 7-9 cups of veggies a day, even though they are also big keto proponents. One of them even says you should completely ignore the carbs if they come from the more keto-friendly vegetables, up through about broccoli and green beans.

I usually manage about a half a cup of vegetables a day, and I’m not going to get much further than that, unless I disregard the carbs, because most of the low-carb vegetables are ones I can’t eat. Lettuce … something about the texture of it, I think. If I put it in my mouth, within a few seconds, I throw up. Just can’t help it. The only really low carb veggie I can eat (if it is cooked) is spinach, and it has it’s own problems, as it is the worst for pesticide residue.

Then of course, there is the question of what kind of cups are being used? If you take an 8 ounce mug, and call it a cup and start sticking broccoli florets in it, by the time it’s full, you may only have 3 or 4 ounces of broccoli … is it still a cup?

So here’s the question … do you greatly up your carb count, and have the ‘proper’ amount of veggies, or do you stay to the ultra-low carb limits, and avoid the veggies? I could probably happily eat a bunch of broccoli a day (love the stuff), but what would it do to the keto attempt?

Just thought I’d get some opinions on this.

#2

7-9 cups of ANY kind of food seems a ridiculous amount. I eat as many low carb veggies as I like - some days that’s maybe 2 cups & some days it’s none. I’m in excellent health so it clearly works for me - I suggest you feel your way & find what works best for you in the long term.

(Jon) #3

Maybe I should just look at the fact that, for the first time in my life, I’m eating veggies, even if it’s only a few ounces a day, and be happy with the improvement. ::grin::

#4

Some people do well & achieve their goals eating no veggies & some of us feel & do better with some but I cannot imagine eating 9 cups of them.

#6

The ‘proper’ amount of vegetables is based on opinion.

Jon, you have a range to work within when it comes to eating vegetables.

Vegetables being the edible non-fruit part of plants. That would include the flowers (florets) of broccoli.

The range is from none to a lot.

The main concerns in the human diet are highly processed carbohydrates (including sugar) and seeds that are found in industrial packaged foods. Along with those are the concerns of industrial seed oils.

Get that crap out of the diet and have a health and well-being check in after a month. Make adjustments from there.

Eating whole foods that are plants are a lesser concern and can be an issue for people with allergies to plant proteins. That takes more research than is required in the question you ask.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #7

Citing some of these might help to put them context. It might also help identify any biases of those making such claims. Bottom line: vegetables are carbs, mostly indigestible cellulose. There is zero nutritional need to consume carbs and on a ketogenic diet zero need to consume the fiber and bulk of cellulose. So eating vegetables is a choice not a necessity. That said, some vegetables, aside from carbs, are excellent sources of micronutrients and many not so much.

My opinion is that if you’re going to pay a carb tax to eat a vegetable, you may as well get the max benefit for the minimum tax. If you want to eat vegetables, I always recommend bok choy as the biggest micronutrient return on the smallest carb penalty.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #8

I eat lots of vegetables. With lots of olive oil.

#9

Not always. Some foods, like onions, mushrooms, and cabbage, reduce down significantly when cooked.

For example, when I make cabbage Alfredo, I start with a 4-cup Pyrex container filled with mostly cabbage, some onions, with butter and spices. After 6+ minutes in the microwave, the results are less than a cup.

#10

So… as a matter of interest, do you count what you start with, or the weight of what you have after its cooked?

#11

When I track, I always count what I start with.

To me, it doesn’t make sense to measure anything after cooking, because there would be nothing to compare it to. Just the length of cooking can change how much it will weigh. And at the end, I’d have no idea how much of the final product’s weight is cabbage vs onions vs butter.

#12

7-9 cups per day still seems like an awful lot to me :woman_shrugging:

(bulkbiker) #13

Dr Berg craziness…

#14

You sound more like the type to go carnivore?
But try cauliflower rice. You have to fry it in oil not boil it- that way it retains the consistency of rice. And I don’t even notice that it isn’t rice anymore. I make myself a thai curry and use this as the replacement for rice. I also use it in casseroles- like mac and cheese. It just never really tastes like cauliflower anymore when they do the rice form. You can find it frozen at your supermarket.

#15

The average veggie lover don’t eat that much let alone a ketoer.

Keto allows very little vegetables from my viewpoint, I spent only 25g net carbs on my veggies (I ate 40g net carbs as it was clearly impossible to go lower but it’s keto for me and I got some benefits) and it felt definitely significantly less than minimal for me. That’s why I quit when I get some sudden fat adaptation benefits and tried to learn eating super little vegetables off keto (and on, I did on/off for years). But I needed at least carnivore-ish to feel bigger benefits and see even a slim chance to lose any fat.
I never considered their carbs that “doesn’t count”, it wouldn’t make sense. It does count, especially for me. Carbs make me hungry, wanting sweets in the end of meal (it’s a very long habit so I thought it can’t be helped but if I ditch carbs, I suddenly don’t have this), mess my signals up and I can’t have enough energy that way. Vegetables are carbs just the same. And for example, cauliflower, my old big fav that I could eat in the biggest amounts of all low-carb vegetables, well, that wasn’t keto that way. Its carb content combined the 2 pounds in one sitting… - it was the minimal amount I could imagine with the awesome fried riced cauliflower I’ve just learned to make… Even my generous carb limit couldn’t take that. Of course I learned how to make and eat less, eventually but it was but a tiny taste, not serious, why to work with that often?

Each of their own, of course. If someone is thriving with a ton of vegetables, I never would advice not doing that. Even if that’s not keto for them. It’s their diet, their choice anyway.
And I’ve heard about so many ketoers below 20g (I need carnivore to go below and even being careful with the carbier stuff. but it’s easy, at least) eating as much vegetables as they like. Many people can afford a proper vegetable heavy dish because their other food is meat. But most popular keto ingredients has carbs and they can add up. I’ve read so many times that "oh, this vegetable is 19g net carbs? you can eat it just fine, it’s below 20g. well if everything else is fat and meat, fine. some people spend their up to 20g on garlic for a single meal but they don’t eat more. But most of us use carbs all the time and even multiple dishes…
If I count, I try to count well, obviously everything. Net carbs surely matter, I never cared about my total but some people need be careful with that too.

Infos online or anywhere else… You can find so many opinions even from experts. I learned ages ago I should ignore most of them. Getting facts, that’s useful. But it’s very different to eat tons of vegetables on a “normal” diet and on keto. But keto has so different styles too and the body behaves differently when on carnivore vs on some keto with eating about everything, vegetables and desserts galore too. There’s vegetarian and vegan keto, I wouldn’t do those without vegetables but now I wouldn’t do them in any way… Vegetarian keto was nice but far from ideal for me, a temporal solution.

I think it’s so lucky being able to eat half a cup of vegetables, whatever it means, cups are such a crappy measurement units for something not liquid… Use grams, seriously. Or oz if you are at that part of the world.
If you eat little vegetables, you won’t need to spend your precious carbs on vegetables then. And most of the nutrients are easier to get from other sources anyway. I can’t do the anti-vegetable carnivore talk, many others here could :smiley: But vegetables aren’t needed for health. In some, not even too few cases, they just ruin things. Or certain vegetables do.

My proper amount of vegetables is around 10g per day or less. Very rarely more. There is no proper amount in general! Zero is fine if your diet is right for that. 2-3 kg is fine if it works for you. I experimented so much and I can’t even make me eating lots of vegetables anymore, it’s so glaringly obvious they aren’t my allies and should be consumed in super tiny amounts and not every day. For me, now. Others or me in the past? Lots of them may be needed. I think you should do whatever is comfortable for you as long as you have a proper, nutritious diet.

#16

And I haven’t the vaguest idea how much is that. It depends on the vegetable if it’s much in my eyes. It sounds a decent amount for a single dish of a lunch if it’s cauliflower. But it’s especially hard to measure in cups. Cups are so bad, what is a cup of spinach? How much air between the leaves? Let’s weigh them. But it’s still individual. 1000g vegetables was a cute amount for me, doable on my old keto if certain conditions were met. Now I prefer it between 0 and a few grams per day. Others eat way more than 1000g, it’s all fine if it works for them. Just not on keto, probably.

#17

Many of us have realized that the carbs from veggies really don’t have the affect we though they did on us. You’ll find many different opinions in the keto community on this one. Me personally, I’ll eat whatever serving of veggies that I want, could give a crap less about the carb content. Pretending that the carbs from veggies act the same as the carbs from cake and ice cream is just crazy, because they don’t. Many ignore carbs from green/leafy veggies, some will just eat whatever we want. It’s not like you’re going to eat 5lbs of cauliflower with your steak or something! Cauliflower was actually what woke me up to this whole thing, I’m supposed to be iffy on too many carbs from random veggies which are all pretty low carb, yet eating a pizza with a cauliflower crust is completely cool…SURE!

A cup always means a measuring cup, not a mug or something you drink out of and yes, it’s still a cup. Cups are good for liquids and powders, not for bulky things. Measuring by weight is the only way to be accurate with stuff like that, but again, as far as I’m converted that’s crazy. I’m a macro tracker and want to know everything that I eat, but I’m not being THAT anal about something that isn’t going to matter. I’ll put down a serving of broccoli, throw a “normal” amount on my plate and be done with it. There’s a time to be super accurate and then there’s not.

I’m also very happy with Broccoli as a side with most of my meals, I’ll up the carb count. I just checked Cronometer since I don’t really pay (too much) attention to it but in the last 8 weeks I’ve averaged 63g of net carbs a day, in the last 8 weeks I’m down 12.3lbs. My average protein intake is 185g/day and my average fat intake is 82g/day. I’m somebody who has destroyed their metabolism (thanks fasting) and been on the rebuild for a while, had huge stalls and been completely unable to loose anymore. You really just gotta find both what works for you AND what is sustainable for you long term.

(Pete A) #18

Daily I eat 1\8 of a cup of frozen spinach or kale 1 minute in microwave with.my 3/4 tablespoon of butter. I also eat 5 cherry tomatoes a day. Sometimes I’ll have the same portion size of raw lettuce or 4 blackberries in season etc.

I think nothing of it except like you said I’m “getting veggies everyday” I count the carbs and still get less than 10g net a day.

#19

I guess I’m in the minority. I love my low(er) carb veggies:

Before keto, I used to eat a lot of green peas and corn and potatoes.

(charlie3) #20

I’ve been eating a very large non starchy vegetable salad daily. Take all the water out and it’s not so much. I do that because I enjoy it, and it covers a lot of micros. Recently, when the vegetables are used up, I go carnivore for some days before shopping again for veggies. With the salad i’m eating 60 grams net carbs daiy. Carnivore reduces that to 16 grams net carbs. I’m weight stable with the salad and lose weight slowly on carnivore. Instead of picking one as the most healthy I’m doing both.

(Steve) #21

Yeah, not a fan of the 7-9 cups of veggies guideline some people are pushing.
Me, I normally have either a big salad (about 5 cups of dark greens) or about 200g of steamed veggies with my meal. Keeps me from having to supplement, though I still take a multi-vitamin every day.