Yes
This is why you are doing keto. You have explained it to yourself. Don’t listen to other people who might sidetrack you. Listen to your body. It has the greatest wisdom.
Ultra Endurance Athlete Starting Out
Alecmcq
(Alec)
#42
Ferris is talking utter bollox. I had to stop listening when he explained he was drinking exogenous ketones.
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#43
Thanks for being upfront @Alecmcq I am having a challenging day mentally and your words are keeping me on course.
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#45
Day 19: Bonk Test
On my long run today, I wanted to use it as a barometer for my progress towards fat adaption. I hadn’t eaten in 20 hours and set off in 90deg weather with no nutrition, just water with electrolytes.
At about the 150 minute mark I noticed gradual tightening in my glutes and hips. Then a bit of aching in my knees. Then a decline in mood. By the 180 minute mark I fully acknowledged that I had found my bonk threshhold so far.
It was a good test, and by no means was the bonk a wall, it was just a gradual decline.
I am eating some olives and pate and cream cheese and pork rinds and chorizo now. Yum. I don’t feel depleted and I don’t feel much muscle soreness. I thought about tacking on more mileage but chose the gentle choice.
Run = 17 miles fasted
Alecmcq
(Alec)
#46
Great work Nathan, I think you are getting there. 2.5-3hrs no intake is pretty good going. 
Alecmcq
(Alec)
#47
Nathan
As you seem to be an ultra guy, you might do some research on the maximum calories from bodyfat per day that is sometimes discussed. I think I remember the number 31 calories per lb (I think, corrections welcome) of bodyfat per day. So if you have say 40lbs of bodyfat, then there’s a theoretical max number of calories that you can source from bodyfat per day = 40x31=1200ish. Which when doing an ultra isn’t a lot.
I don’t think these numbers or limits are well tested in different circumstances, and I think they are at best gross estimates, and at worst the whole theory might be utter bollox.
But I point this out to you, as I think of all the people on here, this probably affects you more than anyone. I did quite a bit of research on this a few weeks back and couldn’t really find much that was definitive. But I point it out to you so you can research if you want.
Cheers
Alec
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#48
this fascinated me. i heard about his from the 2 keto dudes just recently so it’s serendipitous that you bring this up. i think i have about 30 lbs of fat to fuel me (i weigh roughly 165 give or take 3 lbs, and my lean body mass is supposedly 138 lbs) and if i burn roughly 700 calories an hour, it would make sense that, after having used up most of my exogenous nutrition in the 20 hr fast prior to my run, i would experience bonking at around the point that i did. or maybe not bonking but rather an exponentially more difficult time finding sources of energy from which my body can draw upon.
what i wonder is, if i drink down 3 tablespoons of mct oil at say, the 2hr mark in my run, does this spare muscle wasting and contribute energy to my workout in the medium-term if i am fat adapted? does fat adaption not just mean ability to access stored fat but the speed by which we can uptake exogenous fat as energy?
Alecmcq
(Alec)
#49
My understanding is that if you ingest some fat on the run that is essentially available to fuel your run. The limits above are using bodyfat specifically, not total fat use. So adding fat to the party mid run would extend the bonk. And indefinitely from my understanding.
In my research I was trying to understand the theoretical reasons behind the bodyfat limits, but alas I couldn’t find a clear rationale.
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#50
Day 20: Recovering From A Binge
After a fasted long run yesterday, I went to my mother’s and celebrated my brother’s birthday. We had burgers and played board games. It was really fun and we laughed a lot.
But eating out is still very unsettling to my feelings of control. Though I stuck to keto, after dinner and games, it was already midnight, I went to the grocery and spent too much money on meats and cheeses and seltzer’s. I ended the night at 3am, painfully overfilled. I couldn’t even fall asleep on my back, my stomach was so stretched. I had to fall asleep in the fetal position.
My theory is that my fasted run may have triggered some deep internal wiring that told my body it was not safe and needed to protect itself. Also, my anxiety was high being around family. The other side of the coin is that my performance during my run, and my gait cycle felt amazing on an empty stomach. So I could benefit from compromising on both ends. Properly bookend my bigger efforts by being less fasted before, checking in with stress and safety during and have a food plan for after.
The epiphany I had last night and today is that it’s not the same deal as before, overeating. My brain is still expecting the sugar rush thrill of losing control and gorging but when I gorge on keto foods, it’s just this steady, uneventful, eventually tasteless stasis.
While historically, my binging is a method of escapist inebriation, my body and mind are putting together that keto-binges are a gradual, uneventful, non-insulinic progression towards tasteless stasis.
My psychology still expects the rush of previous binges but it’s not getting such a nuerochemical response. Perhaps this is how keto has helped folks who deal with BED. 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
To break free of food slavery so I can enjoy cresting and descending mountains with a light heart: this is why I am going to keep calm and keto on. I hope to just enjoy my Sunday, relax, be gentle, recover from my training, and start the work week on a good foot.
My Western States Endurance Run, sub-24hr finishers buckle came in the mail yesterday. A 4 year dream-in-the-making come true.
Got to weigh the bad with the good.
Jenkerns
(Jen K)
#54
Super helpful post! I’m at the end of week 4 and frankly was a little down that I hadn’t turned the corner yet. Struggled through a 30 mile, 2700 ft of climbing bike ride today and wanted to just lay down and quit. Helps to know that others had to wait a bit longer to really feel like they were back in it. Thanks!
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#55
Day 21: Rest Day, Rain Day
Thought i might get some miles in this morning but decided to skip it since I’ve got 8 hours on the bike in the rain today. No rest for the wicked.
This day starts my 4th week. I have made a lot of mistakes so far. Overeating, prematurely fasting, too much fat at once, too much protein for the day, high stress etc.
What I am hoping to do this week is trust my body more.
Despite my mistakes, a lot of things have changed. My capacity for satiety has increased, whereas before, I always felt mentally hungry. I feel like my body is absorbing my exercise better; recovery is increasing. When I don’t binge, this way of eating makes me feel healthfully sleepy at night, instead of getting that dreadful 3rd wind from a carb-rich dinner. Here is one improvement I have experienced, however there is no documentation that this is linked to keto: I have more neuromuscular awareness. The conversation between my brain and my gait cycle for running and cycling is on track and improving, which pays huge dividends over longer and longer efforts. Merely anecdotal, my hypothesis is that ketones are preferred fuel for the brain yadayada and so perhaps this is translating to healthier cellular firing.
I want to trust my body more. Specifically, snack less. I typically go back for an after dinner snack, not because I am stomach-hungry but because I have a hard time ending the day. I have depression and this is one of the myriad ways that it colors my life. But one thing I have noticed is that, if I eat dinner at 7-8pm (immediately after work), and hold off from snacking, my runs in the morning feel settled and properly fueled. It is well worth it to restrain from a bit of distracting mouth-pleasure to enjoy my run exponentially more the next day.
Basically, I want week for to be me settling in. Keep my ketones up adequately, keep my physical efforts as stress free as I can, keep developing my aerobic base for my next 100-miler in November, and increase my mileage over last week.
I think I ran about 55 miles last week and biked about 200-ish miles. I don’t keep track of these things. It was about 11hrs running and 30hrs at work.
95 days until my next 100-miler, Pinhoti 100
I am going to start increasing my mileage. Since I work long hours Monday-Thursday, those morning runs will be maintainable miles. Fridays and Sundays will be long runs. All of these runs plus all of my work will try to be sub-maximal, or at my maximum aerobic pace. But inevitably my work will drive me up to anaerobic ranges. I just hope to keep those times to a minimum until I am fully fat-adapted or at peak training for my race. As my race approaches I will push my carbohydrate intake up to as much as 200g some days to fuel quality efforts and by that time I have confidence that my body will dip pretty flexibly in and out of ketosis during those days.
So grateful to be passed phase 1, basically the, feel awful and have no rhythm yet, phase. Now I just want to be deliberate as I move into phase 2, the “trust my body, hit my rhythm and develop fat-burning” period. I am lucky that my lifestyle mimics ancestral physicality; I move all day most every day. Modern persistence hunting, except its not gazelle, its gratuity.
So if I can get out of my own way, and let my ancestral wiring take charge, I can tap into my physical potential. Or I can get in my own way and binge a whole bunch, which is more likely 
Have a good Monday y’all!
oward12
#56
This has rapidly become the most interesting thread on this forum. Excited to follow your progress towards Pinhoti 100. Keep working on being better than your yester self and you’ll be well set.
AnnM
#57
I think this is what the experienced folks call moving from the “carb fog” to the “keto mental clarity”. Everyone talks about mindfulness, but I found that a hard thing to achieve while on a carb-rich diet. However, in the short time that I have been on keto, my mindfulness regarding what I am eating, how I am sleeping/resting, exercise etc is greatly improved. Best of luck with your next 100-miler!
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#58
I will be using Peter Attia’s self-studies as a template to train for my next 100-miler. For the next 50 or so days, the focus is to become adapted and habituated. Then I will increase my carbohydrate intake during exercise. I love this “Extreme Example” that he outlines to show that even after consuming 275g of carbohydrate on a long bike ride, he ended up with 2.2 mM and 5.1 BG. Metabolic flexibility baby!
Extreme example
At one point, I did two tough bike rides on consecutive days. Each day we rode 110 miles under challenging conditions. Over 6,000 feet of climbing each day and very strong winds, which were either headwinds or cross-winds. On top of this, we rode pretty fast. For the purpose of illustration I recorded everything I did and ate on the second day, which I rode a bit easier than the first day.
The second ride took 6 hours and 5 minutes. My average normalized power output was 225 watts, and arithmetic average power output was 184 watts. Based on mechanical work output, this required about 5,000 kcal. Factoring in the other 18 hours of that day, my total energy expenditure was about 6,800 kcal for the day, obviously not an average day. (A detailed explanation of where the extra 1,800 kcal were expended is beyond what I want to get into now, but it’s basically the energy required to keep me alive – transport ions, contract voluntary and involuntary muscles, etc. — plus move me around, and digest food).
So what did I eat that day?
Breakfast (pre-ride): 5 scrambled eggs, 2 sausage links, 3 pieces of bacon, coffee with cream.
In ride nutrition (I spread this out over 6 hours): 14 oz (not a typo) of salted cashews, 2 Quest bars, 1 peach, 1 apple, 6 bottles of Biosteel High Performance Sports Drink, water. (Since I know someone will ask, I did not consume super starch this day since I was craving cashews as my carbohydrate source and was craving more sodium, given the 90+ degree temperature.)
Late lunch/early dinner (post-ride): 2 oz ham, 3 oz pulled pork, large salad with oil and vinegar dressing, 2 slices of cheddar cheese, 6 mini hamburger patties, 2 tomatoes.
What did this amount to?
Fat – 351 gm, or 3,160 kcal of fat
Protein – 245 gm, or 980 kcal of protein
Carbohydrate – 321 gm, or 1,284 kcal of carbohydrate
(I used package information and Nutritionist Pro software to calculate this.)
Hence, on this day I consumed about 5,400 kcal in total at the following ratio:
Fat – 58%
Protein – 18%
Carbohydrate – 24%
By all conventional wisdom I should not have been in ketosis the next morning, right?
The following morning, my BHB level was 2.2 mM and blood glucose was 5.1 mM.
https://peterattiamd.com/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist/
Nathan_Toben
(Nathan Toben)
#59
Day 23: Exogenous Fat During High Volume Days
Yesterday I had a great trail run. The self-perpetuating mechanism I have mentioned in regards to motivation and exercise is still happening. Though the first 30 minutes feel like a cruise liner shoving off from the harbor, once things are flowing, I feel like I get into this mental space of present moment momentum, probably as a result of ketones. Ran 95 minutes.
Afterwards, I drove to the gym in town for sauna and shower. I considered an IF of 16-18hrs but felt a little weak so i drank some mct oil, took some salt, drank some water. This was the right choice.
Work was slow, I only logged about 32 miles in 6 hrs. At around 2:30pm, I ate 6 boiled eggs, drank some mct, took some salt. This satiated me (actually satiated, not keto-optimistic satiated 
) and I got let go early at 5pm.
On the way home I got some pork skins and dog food and a sparkling mineral water. I was tempted to get a brick of Philadelphia Cream Cheese but I wanted to keep out dairy to see how I felt.
So in summary, I was active all day and sipping on mct, salt and water.
My stomach started really hurting at around 4pm and I had to go to the bathroom frequently from 4pm-7pm. Everything felt like it was moving right through. So obviously, probably too much mct. I’m curious though, I want to find a way to keep a steady drip of exogenous fat to fuel my activity. This serves the duel purpose of keeping macros great, and feeling safely nourished all day so as not to triggers binging.
Another odd thing is I feel great this morning despite being depleted by yesterday’s snafu. I slept well. Perhaps I should bring blend of fats. Take some mct in the morning, olive oil in the afternoon etc.
Not sure yet. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. My mood is good this morning which is key for this depressive. Week 4 is still proving problematic but I’m also feeling good about the general trajectory of my health and fitness.
Today, 60min run
Courier work, 10:45am-7:00pm
I’m thinking about biking down to the beach on Sunday. My sister is interested in doing keto with me next week. I hope to be a helpful messenger and keep her feeling satisfied so she sees how it is sustainable and not calorie restrictive. The ride to the beach passes by civil war memorials, agricultural areas, old lumber and coal towns, it is an incredible perspective of the state of North Carolina.
It’s also a 210 mile ride. It could be quite a test of fat adaption.
VirginiaEdie
(Edith)
#60
Hi Nathan,
I am going to sound like a concerned old lady, but I have a son about your age, so here goes:
While fat and MCT oil are great for supplying energy they don’t have a lot of nutrients. The lack of nutrients doesn’t show up at first if those nutrients can be stored in our bodies, but once they are depleted, you can start having deficiency problems. Especially with your incredibly high activity level, I’m sure your micronutrient needs are also high. You are not going to get those with MCT and olive oil. Also, pork rinds, unfortunately (since I love them), are not actually considered a complete protein.
My concern for you is that you are not getting all the nutrients you require and that in the following months may start running (pun intended) into trouble.