Ultra Endurance Athlete Starting Out

running
(Nathan Toben) #21

Today is a day much like yesterday. Run and sauna in the morning, bike throughout the day. I hope to reiterate some good strategies that you guys have shared with me as I did yesterday.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #22

I just fell in love with you a little.:heart:

All kidding aside, it sounds like the little changes are having an impact. While we certainly advise to stay under 20g carbs, it is a really low number to ensure almost anyone can get into ketosis. A healthy, athletic person will probably be fine ata higher number as long as there isn’t any other underlying issues.

I struggle with protein too. I keep playing with the formulas using lean body mass, but if I don’t think I’m doing it right, because I will be around 1600 calories with less than 20% protein, yet I’m way over in grams. People will say don’t look at the percents, and I don’t with carbs. It’s 20g’s, but with protein, I just make sure I’m around 20%. I can’t possibly cut protein more than that or all I’ll be eating is butter sticks and spoonfuls of oil.

(Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu) #23

I’ve read through the thread fairly quickly, so I might have missed it, but I didn’t see you talking much about potassium (some commenters did), forgive me if I missed it. I’d seriously suggest supplementing with potassium as it’s not always so present in keto-friendly foods. My wife is a professional Muay Thai fighter in Thailand and we discovered that she was pretty significantly below her standard potassium recommendation - the excessive heat and her long hours of training really made this a pressing matter once we realized. To be exercising as much as you do AND on a diuretic diet, I’d imagine your potassium is pretty low. Because potassium in excessive supplementation can be dangerous (these levels of danger are honestly pretty high), you get very cautious recommendations for supplementation from internet sources. So, I’d calculate the likely potassium you need (4,600 mg is a pretty standard number you’ll run into, which doesn’t even factor in the keto diet and your exercise level). We make our own supplement using cream of tartar (1 tsp has 495 mg). Also, cocao husk tea packs an enormous 2,300 mg (which seems oddly high, but I haven’t run into anything that counters that number). We are pretty new to the diet, my wife is on week 7 and I’m on week 2, but the potassium concern - the result of serious Googling, and some short term application - is something every high-performance athlete on keto should be thinking about.

(Nathan Toben) #24

Day 10: A Success, A Failure

Run = 2hrs
Sauna = 20mins
Biking = 8hr shift

Though I felt relaxed, I also felt flat on my run this morning, however I was out there for 2 solid hours and had no trouble motivating for that long. Strange mixture.

But during my courier shift today, at about 4pm, I blew up and road bonked for the last 3 hours. Ouch. Humbling. I was out of it until I got home and devoured 15oz of London Broil in love oil, cream cheese and pork rinds and 4 scrambled eggs.

The reality of how gradual a process this is to adapt is setting in. Tough times but so grateful I’m passed the first few days where it all hurts and there is no momentum.

(Nathan Toben) #25

I thought of you @kevin_v as I was suffering today. Perhaps part of my energy zap has to do with a lack of potassium. I almost got a supplement today but it is still outside of my budget until next week.

(Kevin von Duuglas-Ittu) #26

You can make your own very cheap electrolyte drink using cream of tartar. It doesn’t taste great (asprin-y) but it’s very inexpensive. We mix that with Ceylon cinnamon (which reduces muscle soreness). Check out the signs of potassium deficiency:

potassium
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Even a mild form of some of these can drag down performance. For us we really suspect the mental dimension, towards depression, was an issue, as well as fatigue. My wife always thought that she was constantly fatigued because of her very intense workload, but it might have been exacerbated by potassium deficiency.

Anyways, best of luck on your driven climb!

#27

Hi @Nathan_Toben. Don’t know if you know much about Zach Bitter. He’s a Ketogenic Ultra Runner. He holds the 100 mile track record at 11:47:21. That’s 7:04 minute miles man! He’d be a great source of information for you. Plenty of podcasts out there on him. His Joe Rogan one probably a good place to start. Bit more specifically, on his websites blog he has 4 periodised nutrition entries covering a lot of what you need to know. It would be well worth a read for someone in your realm of activity.

https://zachbitter.com/blog/

Kudos by the way man. You cover crazy miles and seem like a good man.

(Edith) #28

NoSalt has 640mg of potassium per 1/4 teaspoon. You can find it in the salt section at the grocery store. It’s pretty cheap.

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(Nathan Toben) #29

@VirginiaEdie thank you for that tip, i just got cut from work early (thank god) and am going to go to grocery and see if i can find.

Day 11: energy rollercoaster

this morning’s run, my legs felt hot and fried. i couldn’t run more than a 10min/mile but keeping this in perspective because i had a big day yesterday and this whole week has proven to be majorly mercurial. lots of things changing inside i can tell. sleeping much better and having slow long vivid stress-free dreams.

biking today i felt expectedly flat, but then all of a sudden my mood elevated and though my legs still felt fried, i didn’t mind so much and felt a mild sense of liberation not felt for a long long time.

(Nathan Toben) #30

Binged last night. ~12,000 calories for the day. This is typical of me once every week or two. Trying to let go but I often feel entirely trapped by my illness. This is the primary reason I am drawn to keto is the healing. I hope that these binges happen with less frequency in the future if I just keep calm and keto on but this morning is one of those where all hope is snuffed.

On the brighter side, I did not find myself going for low-carb candies, ice creams etc. I binged on keto foods, which will still result in many carbohydrates cumulatively but at least my loyalty to the food groups was not dashed.

(Edith) #31

You exercise a lot. Michael Phelps ate something like 10,000 calories a day. Maybe those binges are your body saying it needs more calories. Just a thought.

#32

I do that! Weird to hear someone else talk about it. I mean I’m bulimic. Simple as that. Which isn’t normal for a man but what can I do. I’ve tried everything. Keto was the first thing to settle my symptoms but before long I’d still have that dark night. I was running marathons for a long time trying to control things but my body started to give up on me. Now I’m experimenting with Carnivore/Zero Carb. Seems to stop the binge and the thoughts. The only thing ever to do so. Gets easier everyday. But yea, Keto would be good but I’d still end up destroying bags of nuts, dark chocolate, halo ice cream, tubs of cream, blocks of cheese. Before long you’ve amassed a lot of carbohydrates. It sucks. Horrible state to find yourself in. But I’ve got real hope with Zero Carb/Carnivore. Keep working at it mate. Doesn’t define you. Check out the Zero Carb/Carnivore thread in these forums if you’re interested. There’s a doctor breaking rowing world records at the age of 50 eating this way so it can be done with physical performance as well. Given time that is.

(Nathan Toben) #33

really interesting thank you @oward12! When i feel so restricted by my disordered eating, a somewhat restrictive diet - if it actually relieves binge tendencies - would feel liberating.

#34

Love this. Completely on my level. Everyone see’s it as restrictive around me, but I’ve never felt more free to live each and every day. Which is, as you say, very liberating.

(Nathan Toben) #35

22hrs into a fast, for better and for worse. going to break it whenever the brain chatter gets overwhelming but i just needed some space.

(Nathan Toben) #36

I think I am on Day 16: The Morning After A Good Day

I’ve posted mainly about some struggles so far with energy levels, binging etc.

Yesterday was a victory. In the morning I ran for about 80 minutes aerobic, twisted my ankle really bad so walked out of the woods. Rode about 45 miles at work yesterday with the sprain. Customers were generous with gratuity which helped keep my mood up.

But also, I have been packing mct oil in an old Rx bottle into my messenger bag. I haven’t measured exactly how much it holds when filled but I think it’s about a dozen tablespoons, roughly 1500 calories of fat. After about the 16-18hr IF mark, I sip down 1/3 - 1/2 the bottle and a tall glass of water. I’ve noticed that in that fasted state, I am able to absorb and digest more mct in one go without any GI discomfort. After about an hour passes (much longer than I expect) my hunger subsides. I keep riding.

Then, a couple hours later I finish the bottle which gets me through the end of the shift.

Yesterday night, I came home and cooked a London Broil in copious butter and herbs du Provence, salt, pepper, and additional seasoning, scrambled 5 eggs in the remaining herby butter and had some pork skins with cream cheese on the side. I finished the meal, thought about opening another bag of pork skins, and didn’t. Thought about opening can of black olives, and didn’t. Thought about cutting up some dark chocolate, and didn’t. I was full.

I was full! This is a victory for me. Haven’t felt full in roughly 2 years.

I know today is a new day and specifically, making my way through such an enduring aerobic day on only mct is not always going to be feasible or sustainable but feeling the safety of satiety has made me feel a sense of relaxation this morning that is rare for me.

#37

Nice work man!

(Maureen Moran ) #38

Hi Nathan, old time ultrarunner here. Have you considered using E-caps for your electrolytes? May add a better blend f
or the sodium loss. The advice from the forum is fabulous. I am just getting started with low carb, lower protein and favorable fats and I feel wonderful. I look forward to getting
your reports and updates.

(Nathan Toben) #39

@Ultramo, I have thought about s-caps just to take the guess work out of things however I live on about $15/day and can not justify the purchase when I know I could buy capsules, bulk potassium magnesium sodium and crush and fill my own. Haha of course I haven’t motivated to actually do that so what I have been currently doing Is trickle a bit of No Salt and Himylayan salt crystals into my handhelds and tho my latest challenge has been digestive stuff, I don’t think my electrolytes go to far to the right or left of par.

Happy to hear another ultra runner is trying this out.

Day 18: Boredom Eating & No Muscle Soreness

Yesterday I got cut from work early, went to the grocery and got cream cheese, pork rinds.

I had run 135 minutes fasted in the morning and then biked 20 miles steady effort at work. Broke a 16hr fast with 5 tbsp mct oil, thinking I’d be working until 5pm. But once I got home, I made bacon and eggs in 4 tbsp of butter and soaked it all up in herbs and salt and pork rinds and cream cheese.

Then I felt heavy lids and went to sleep for 3 hrs. When I woke I could tell I was in deepest state of ketosis so far by the low inflammation feeling and hot buzz. I wasn’t particularly hungry but I was restless and have a hard time ending the day without the reward and activity’s of food.

So I went to the gas station and got some mineral water and more pork rinds and came home and made sausage and eggs. Then I felt really full and still do this morning.

I hope this volume of food doesn’t interfere with my morning run. Although, I keep hearing how important it is to keep calories up for the first few months for adaptation. Probably had about 5000-6000 calories yesterday. Roughly equal to my daily caloric demand.

I’m at 162.5, down from 171 on July 7th. I just don’t like that out of control feeling of feasting.

One thing I am starting to notice is the no-drama of running middle-distance runs. 8-14-milers just feel like there is no soreness during and afterwards—only at the start, for the first 20-30 minutes. I feel like I am switching from a compact car to a freight train. Hard to get going, to iterate this new substrate, but once I get moving, ketones not only focus my attention on the next section of trail but give me this feeling of momentum that I was not getting when fueling with carbohydrates regularly.

It’s nice to be seeing the positive benefits. So, in summary:

lots of silly worries,
mild mistakes they feel big at the time
and gradual adaptions going on here.

I’m going to KCKO.

P.S. Though I am early on, I am contemplating challenging myself to a 24-hr fast. Finishing eating today at 5pm, eat tomorrow at 5pm. Should I hold off? Am I playing exercise bulemia games? I want to feel light and lean and spur weight-loss, offload inflammation from the work week, other reasons. I don’t know if I have the strength and fasting skill to do it yet. My high energy expenditure makes fasting very difficult for me.

(Nathan Toben) #40

Ran 120 minutes this morning and biked the lunch shift at work, about twenty miles. Did all of this on the energy from a massive dinner at 9pm yesterday.

I watched a Tim Ferriss video for the first time today And it didn’t sit well with me. This one:

What he talks about in regards to how many of us can actually enact a proper ketogenic diet being small, and that having protein be too high being potentially the most harmful diet of all, it just bummed me out.

Is this really for me?

The most incredible and noticeable progress so far is feeling like I am slipping the bonds of food slavery. Secondarily is that running feels to be motivating itself as opposed to me having to dig into my mind for willpower.

I know I can reach ketosis and fat adaptation more effectively and directly if I reduce my protein intake, it’s just, simply, hard to do. Deep breath. I dunno, am I overthinking this?