The more I read, the more confused I am - mainly about fat

#1

I have a long list of foods on a spreadsheet and it’s easy for me to simply copy and place some of interest and see what the total outcome would be when consuming those during the day.
Most trouble comes from not reaching enough fat. For me I can’t consume enough bacon, butter, mayo, cream cheese, olive oil to reach the fat number because all of these need a fair amount of greens, tomatoes, etc. and carbs will get above 20 g in a hurry.

I’m not a coffee fan, but I drink one in the morning with almond milk and whey protein powder. Not great tasting, but it works. Now adding butter or coconut oil to it would make it yucky.

Watched few videos of Dr. Westman who says you should focus more on protein and less on fat, but that didn’t help much.

Any diet can’t be sustainable if you don’t enjoy the foods you eat, no matter how healthy they are or how strong a believer you are.

I browsed the posts in the food section hoping to find ideas on how to bump up the fat numbers using foods I would like and can’t say I found much.

I had hoped to start this weekend, but now I’m about to leave for my groceries run and I could not come up with a list for the keto diet. At least not yet.

#2

I base my diet on meat and eggs. I try to avoid (or minimize or be super careful with) very fatty meat and added fat to keep my fat low enough (usually still too high) so we must do things drastically different…
Do you really need the fat amount your target is? Do you use some random popular percentages like 70% or 75% fat? It would be a bad idea for me but I never did that (I touch 70% sometimes but it’s better below.) And I love fat but even I had times when I just didn’t want so much of it as it felt bad. It was in the beginning of carnivore though, yes, it’s very different to eat your meat with vegs or alone…
Our fat and protein doesn’t necessarily need a bunch of carbs along with it. Even if you need some, it can be lowered, changed… It’s easy to get too much carbs from vegs so one should be careful if they are prone to eat much.
But for butter, mayo etc.? Even I would need a lot of other things for them (it’s another matter I usually just use eggs in some form)! I just don’t use so fatty items. Some nice roast is fine alone or with eggs, it feels different even if it’s properly fatty.

If you came from eating low-fat, it must be harder, I probably would eat lower-fat and slowly bring up the fattiness to the right level, no matter what that is, experiment with different things…
Eggs are very fatty, for example but they don’t really feel so, they are tricky. I can make them in a way that they even can be paired with very fatty meat and it feels right. Again, maybe it’s not right for you if you are used to low-fat, I don’t know much about it, I always ate quite high-fat. But I do know that a dish may be greasy, ew… While another dish with the same fattiness may be just perfect.

#3

OK doing the read bold text to questions as my response.[quote=“Legrele, post:1, topic:116551, full:true”]

First we have 0 idea how long Keto?
We have 0 info on medical but…

I have a long list of foods on a spreadsheet and it’s easy for me to simply copy and place some of interest and see what the total outcome would be when consuming those during the day.
Most trouble comes from not reaching enough fat. For me I can’t consume enough bacon, butter, mayo, cream cheese, olive oil to reach the fat number because all of these need a fair amount of greens, tomatoes, etc. and carbs will get above 20 g in a hurry.
Why in a hurry? missing why YOU FEEL you need ‘enough fat’? Is this due to you personally feeling your body truly needs more or is it 'cause ya read some people require it? this is a biggie in that they are not you and you are not a number ya know, so this is a ‘do you’ type body thing as we change and progress and heal

I’m not a coffee fan, but I drink one in the morning with almond milk and whey protein powder. Not great tasting, but it works. Now adding butter or coconut oil to it would make it yucky. not fan, dump it if you feel that way. eat food, real food LOL not a darn thing wrong with that. I am a 0 coffee person, I hate it and one can’t get me ever to drink so if on that fence, think what food would I love to eat, hmm, that bacon you so desire? who knows! [stong text}

Watched few videos of Dr. Westman who says you should focus more on protein and less on fat, but that didn’t help much. again don’t know your issues on why this is a focus?

Any diet can’t be sustainable if you don’t enjoy the foods you eat, no matter how healthy they are or how strong a believer you are. ***strong text**agreed but we must 'eat that plan to our satisfaction thru time to change us to find us ya know and in the end, we do just that, find what works for us personally but this requires time. sometimes big healing time

I browsed the posts in the food section hoping to find ideas on how to bump up the fat numbers using foods I would like and can’t say I found much. cause ‘we’ don’t bump up on demand thru wondering or guessing or reading what others do, we just eat all we need and chagne as we do it

I had hoped to start this weekend, but now I’m about to leave for my groceries run and I could not come up with a list for the keto diet. At least not yet.
[/quote]

Keto Plan is easy. Eat what ya love. Limit 'carb intake to 20g or around there and eat what you love. All ya want as long as those carb are holding in that intake of around 20g. Now you decide net carbs of 20-30g whole real carbs and ‘take it from there’ but time on plan means new perspectives to us in our bodies.

So how long Keto Plan? ya done it before and didn’t make it? why ya coming this way? background and key being are you TOO focused on others experinces and corrections in their timeline to just find you in the plan?

Just a chat :wink: :sunny: alot of issues going down and finding us moving forward.

heck some is modern in this forum as bold intended, some of it might not be right HAHA but in the end I tried! wee…I tried to navigate the fancy in the site for your replies to your questions :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

#4

Oh yes I forgot about the coffee. Good, I have a rare no coffee day today.

Why do you drink coffee if you don’t like it? For its effect?
And yeah, I wouldn’t like your coffee either (not like I ever tried that version but sounds bad), cream is much better (and it boost your fat intake too)… Eggs and butter in it is much better (fat, again. protein too). But there are zillion ways to drink coffee.

#5

That’s easy, ZERO trouble comes from not enough fat, because fat isn’t a goal. Getting in enough protein for your needs is a goal, not going over your carbs is a limit, fat fills in the blanks. How much fat you eat has little to do with it, Ketosis is from lack of carbs, not from high fat. The only somewhat exception is when you first start out, as you’re not good as mobilizing fat stores for fuel yet, so sometimes increasing the intake can help, but even then it’s a minimal difference.

(Denise) #6

I kept mine pretty simple Legrele, and mainly I try to eat the same foods so I don’t have to keep checking my blood glucose for my T2 Diabetes :wink:

Here’s an idea of what I eat a day, and it may seem complicated but the routine I got into really made it easy. I didn’t worry about my calories either, I just began walking atleast 30 minutes at about 4 miles per hour. But we all have to see what works for us with meals etc. But I had to go easy on myself as I wanted to be perfect and I gave up on that early and have succeeded in losing 27 lbs total, and A1c’s are in good range:

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(Marianne) #7

Like @shinita mentioned, how do you feel about meat and eggs? My husband and I love fatty cuts of pork (pork steak in particular), and eat it often. Cooked properly on the grill or skillet until the fat carmelizes, we find it delicious. We eat a lot of leaner cuts of pork, beef, 73/27 cheeseburgers and eggs. Any of the leaner meats we supplement with added bacon grease. Homemade blue cheese dressing with HWC is another good way to incorporate good fats into your menus. Great on salads or as a sauce for leaner proteins including chicken. I happen to like rich, fatty food, so for me the transition to HFLC was not difficult.

Good luck.

#8

Hi Legrele,

How about writing a list of the veg you like that’s low carb and a list of meat/fish too? I eat a lot of spinach, lettuce and broccoli, about 400g daily without going over 20g total carbs. Do you like Kale?
I agree with you that no WOE would be sustainable if we don’t enjoy the food. Good luck :sunny:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

Need a fair amount of greens? I don’t understand.

First, cook with butter/ghee, bacon grease, lard, or tallow. That will add a lot of healthy fat to your diet, right there. Second, you don’t really need to worry too much about leafy greens. Twenty grams of romaine is quite a large salad. Onions and tomatoes need only be present in token amounts.

Not only that, but the idea is not to cram fat down your gullet, but to eat enough to provide your body with the energy it needs. Fat contains 9 calories/gram, whereas carbohydrate contains only 4 cal/g. So you only need 130 g of fat to replace the energy from 300 g of carbohydrate cut from your diet.

Almond milk is mostly sugared water. You can safely dispense with it, and that will help your carb count. If you like the whey powder, have at it, but you can get along fine without it, simply by eating whole, real foods.

Benjamin Bikman has a useful mantra: Control carbohydrate, prioritise protein, fill in with fat. Most meats contain protein and fat in about equal amounts by weight, which in terms of calories consumed is 31% protein and 69% fat. If that doesn’t satisfy you, you may need either to increase the proportion of protein somewhat, or to increase the proportion of fat somewhat. But either way, you ought to be able to go for hours between meals without needing to snack. Listen to your body, and eat enough food at each meal to satisfy your hunger.

Do an Internet search on Westman’s Page Four. It gives a comprehensive list of foods to avoid, foods to eat with caution, and foods to eat without worrying about them.

(Denise) #10

Just want to mention my Silk unsweetened Vanilla has only 1 carb per cup. I do use a bit of stevia in mine and use it just for a creamer in coffee. One slice of a garden tomato sent me spiking. I wanted to be able to eat them so bad, but not for me and my T2 :disappointed_relieved:

#11

Guys, thanks a lot for the replies.
Hard for me to have a focused reply to each of you, so I’ll try in bulk and hopefully I’ll have all questions answered.
First of all I haven’t started keto yet, but was seriously thinking of it.

Then why I think I need lots of fat? Because these are numbers I keep reading almost everywhere:

  • Carbs below 20 grams (net or total - that’s another discussion, don’t want to go there) and 5-10% of total calories.
  • Fats: 60-75% of total
  • Proteins: 30% of total

The greens problem. I eat lots of them and some are not great at the carb number. When I have steak, fish or chicken I eat 1/2 of a small cabbage (shredded) or any salad mix, but not a little. I also love to add sauteed peas with mushrooms (hard to stay at 1/3 cup only).

Scrambled eggs with bacon beg for a salad mixture (easily 1 cup). If without bacon, I can live with just 1/2 big tomato and onions.

My morning coffee used to be with whole milk and real sugar. Quite a while ago I switched to almond milk and found out that if I add a scoop of protein powder, there’s no need to add sugar at all. The coffee alone isn’t great, but I add a slice of toast with peanut butter and the combination got me addicted. For few years I was using Ezekiel Bread, but recently discovered a lower carb bread I mentioned in another post.
image

The almond milk I use is unsweetened (just 2 grams carbs).

Thank you Goldengirl52 for the list. That’s great for ideas, but I could not put it in practice. I still work full time and the only more involved meal is dinner at around 6 pm after work, but even then I try to keep things simple: meat, legumes, salads, fruits (1/3 cup blueberries or 1/3 grapes). My lunch at work gravitates around a big guacamole portion made of one avocado, 1/4 tomato, green onions, olives and then 1/4 melon.

Cheese can help raise the fat amount and I like all cheeses, but try to reduce it as much as I can because dairy is said to promote prostate enlargement.

Coming back to eggs and bacon. Yes, I like them, but aside from also liking salads with them I can only have them during weekend and not both days. We can’t stand the smell that spreads in the whole house and my wife likes to open all windows and then we pray for some draft. The kitchen exhaust fan we have helps, but can’t really cope with scrambled eggs and fried bacon.

Cooking with butter, bacon grease, tallow? Well, I will never complain the salmon or chicken breast is too dry. I like them on the BBQ and do it pretty often. We rarely bake in the oven and almost never fry in a pan. Plus I don’t like fat meat. The only exception is chicken wings (bone in), but fortunately we only do this once in a while and when we do it I also have fries.

So … picky guy with food habits that are hard to convert to keto.

(Robin) #12

Sounds like you are more committed to your fruits and veggies than keto, which is absolutely fine… it’s your prerogative. And any reduction in carbs is good for you.

You won’t be the first to be on the fence, take some aspects of keto, leave the rest. Whatever works for you. Best of luck.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

Ignore the percentages.

  • Your carb allowance is a fixed upper limit, because you want to keep insulin low. We recommend eating no more than 20 g/day.

  • Protein should be pegged to your lean mass, so as to prevent any from being lost. We recommend 1.0-1.5 g of protein / kg of lean body mass / day, but some recommendations go up to 2.0 g/kg. You should be at the higher end of the range, if you are trying to build muscle. And note that when we say “protein” we don’t mean meat. Protein is about a quarter of the meat by weight, so if you want to get 100 g of protein a day, you need to eat 400 g/14 oz. of meat a day. If you are reckoning in ounces, a good rule of thumb is that an ounce of meat contains 7 g of protein.

  • Fat should be enough to satisfy your appetite. In other words, don’t count calories, just eat to satiety. You should be eating enough at meals that you can go hours between meals and not need to snack. If you do need a snack, be sure it’s a keto one, and then eat more at the next meal.

As advised, limit your carbohydrate intake to 20 g/day. This will ensure that your insulin stays low enough to allow you to get into and stay in ketosis. Glucose (carbohydrate) is not necessary to the human diet; there are no known carbohydrate deficiency diseases. The body needs a small amount of glucose, but it can make all it needs, if it has to; you do not need to give it any.

Your actual carb tolerance may be more than 20 g/day, or you may be so insulin resistant that your limit might be even lower. You can only find out by experimenting. However, if you have reason to believe you are insulin-resistant, then if you want the benefits of ketosis, you will have to eat less carbohydrate, rather than more. The point is to eat so little carbohydrate that your serum insulin will remain below 25 μU/mL for as much of the day as possible. This is the only way to get out of fat-storing mode and into fat-burning mode.

If you really cannot do without the amount of carbohydrate you want to eat, you might wish to consider whether a ketogenic diet is really for you.

(Denise) #14

For me it came easy to clean out my cupboards and refridgarator @Legrele because I was diagnosed with T2 diabetes. I just knew it was the right thing for me to try, Keto, because I didn’t want to take Metformin, or any drug to avoid (supposedly avoid) what happens to some with diabetes (T2). It really was a bonus for me that I lost extra weight which I heard I would, doing Keto.

It really depends on what you want to do and how committed you become. Anyone I know that has stuck with a low-carb, fats, and proteins is ecstatic about it and wouldn’t go back to the old ways but that doesn’t mean everyone has the willingness to give it their all.

I would find it more difficult to adjust if I still held a full-time schedule of a job as well, but plenty of people do it of course. It was a lot to change for me, being a retired lady, but I can honestly say it’s the best decision I ever made regarding my physical, mental and emotional well-being. For me it was just some sort of total mind reset. It just happened, and sometimes if I really look back on it, and the changes I can hardly believe I’ve come so far in 20-21 months.

If nothing else, you can gain a lot of info here, as well as lots of studies/videos to keep in touch with :wink: or come back too if things don’t go as well doing your eating plan other ways.

#15

I surely wrote it before, percentages don’t really matter. There is nothing wrong with staying lower than 60% fat if you get all the nutrients you need (<60% fat surely can’t work for some people. it’s fine for me though it’s a bit hard to do and I am fine a bit higher).
Your protein need is in grams. It doesn’t matter if you eat 15% or 45% protein if you get the right amount (and it’s not a single number, it’s a range).

Yeah I had to learn I can’\t use my minimum amount of vegs on keto as I go over 50g net carbs that way… It was my single problem with keto, the super low amount of vegs… :smiley: But raw vegs feel different, I don’t NEED to eat a ton of vegs just because I can… And well, I started with higher carbs and went lower later. I was lucky but if you want to be safe, stay below 20g net carbs (at least, total is even harder) and do what you can with your vegs. It’s like with fruits: some vegs I couldn’t eat in tiny amounts so they had to go. I used the low-carb ones I could eat modestly, the high-carb ones totally needed but a little went a long way… And I did my best to use just a little raw low-carb vegs along my protein sources. And I had dishes not using any vegs though it was tricky in my veggie lover times.
We just can’t eat big amount of vegs multiple times a day on keto (or once if you are like old me and big means really big if it comes to vegs), we need to change. But we can. Keto isn’t super strict, we have a wriggle room… But it takes time to figure it out for a newbie ketoer, sure, probably most of us can relate.

I almost lost my peas on low-carb. I used a little in soups but it’s peas, it’s carby… It just doesn’t fit. Focus on the most satisfying low-carb vegs…
And you wrote legumes again. Yeah I saw people eating a little legumes on keto and I did the same for a while (just a few in a cup of soup) but legumes and keto… Doesn’t really mix. Or you need to use ridiculous amounts or eat your peas and don’t spend carbs for something else in your day… So it’s tricky…

Grapes, you are so bold!
Lots of vegs, legumes too, fruit, almond milk, bread, carbs easily add up this way.
If you can’t imagine letting them go or reduce, you may do what I did, 40-45g net and unlimited total carbs but it’s risky. I got keto and fat adaptation like this so it’s possible, it wasn’t enough for me but I couldn’t go low right away. Of course, low-carb alone works for many people, I enjoyed my 80g net carbs for years before I realized I need to go lower…
Even if you are similar to me so very low-carb gives the benefits, you may gradually lower your intake as you find ways to pull it off without feeling deprived…?

If not bacon, some other fatty processed meat…? I like sausages, for example. Not even frying is needed for the right type (my fav dry ones).

(Denise) #16

I agree 100% with @PaulL not counting calories. I rarely pay any attention if I want to plug in a day of food in my diary, which I rarely do now. I only did it the first couple of weeks just to see where I was at with my macros, but didn’t worry about calories/amounts of food thanks to info like Paul’s reply. Since I was not an “over-eater”, well, I was when I realized how many carbs I was pumping into my body, but I mean before dropping them down. Mine were under 50g after starting keto, but eventually they just naturally started being even less. I think mine run around 30g down to 20g or below.

#17

Thanks again.
Ignoring those percentages makes it more doable so there is hope. So basically stay bellow 20 g carbs and get the protein grams I need for my weight.
Giving it more thought it seems easier for me to skip breakfast during week days. I already stop eating after 7pm, so this will allow for around 16 hour fasting window.

#18

That’s pretty much how I work it. Never been one for eating when I get up anyway.

On work days, I like to get in around 45 mins of exercise of one type or another on my lunch hour, and that will leave me 15 mins to grab some stuff from the fridge that I prepped before or have left over, like frittata, cold meats, salad etc.

Then I cook when I’m done with work and stop there. 2MAD seems to work well for me, so all is well : )

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #19

Don’t try to force it, but if it works for you, mazel tov!

(Kirk Wolak) #22

Sometimes confusion is “Internal Resistance”. You don’t want to do this. You don’t believe or Trust it will work. You are not sure who to listen to.

The YouTubers I follow: Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Boz, Dr. Shawn Baker, and Dr. Westman.
If you look at a high-level, they agree, with slightly different approachs. (Baker is the Outlier full carnivore, but at the highest level. Remove Processed Junk Foods, learn to listen to your body. All Meat makes that easier!)

So, find one. Dr. Westman says he has a 1 page list of ALLOWED items. Almond Milk? Honestly? Not on his list! Information Overload? Maybe.

Anyways, if you try to listen to 5 people “Directly” you will be confused. Pick one.
Personally, Westman has the simplest approach to follow, and it works in very poor counties.
Do that for 2-3 months. EXACTLY how HE prescribes it. Follow him.

Then, if you want some change. Try Dr. Berry. Try Dr. Boz. Give them 90 days.
Check Your Blood Numbers (Why I love Dr. Boz, she explains the diet isn’t about carbs, it’s about Chemistry. And the number YOU need is specific to your body and your body chemistry. This takes the GUILT and the SELF-PITY out of it).

Keep doing that, measure you blood glucose and blood ketones. Learn what that means. (Measuring something other than the SCALE matters. The SCALE LIES, and it tells half truths. It doesn’t show if you are gaining FAT and losing MUSCLE, or vice versa!)

After years in this space. This is MORE about what you REMOVE than what you add.
And I promise you, that ENJOYING your food IS the problem. You should NOT be enjoying your food to the point that you might want some when you are not hungry… That’s what got you here. Seeking Pleasure. This is the upside to going carnivore…

BTW, Dr. Fung will use a “FAT FAST” with his clients. Pick ONE fatty source of protein that you like. Eat only that. Every meal. No seasonings. Just salt. (you like bacon? You like eggs). Now eggs have a lot of protein so I was told to do twice as many yokes to fatten it up. Eat ONLY That. For days, and days… Until you SKIP A MEAL naturally/accidentally. Only that drink water. Black coffee. No sweeteners, no cream.

I promise you. You will start learning about the MANY types of hunger you feel. You will go to EAT something, and realize you have NO INTEREST in “eggs”… Tough. If you are hungry, their perfect. If you are jonesing for “something”… It’s not nutrition, and likely addiction.

After 3-5 days, your hunger signals come back. You are hungry when you NEED nutrition. And you are so bored with this food. You REFUSE to eat it until you are hungry… Now… That’s a SKILL!
If you accomplish ONLY ONE THING by the end of this year… I would HOPE that it is truly knowing/feeling hunger in its different forms… And learning to resist any form other than “Nutrition Required”.

Good Luck. At least you have the courage to ask for some help. I’ve seen people fail, and blame the diet, the bad advice, and when I asked, where did they go for support… Crickets…