(Tentative) lessons learned from my "12.000kcals in one day" experiment


(German Ketonian) #1

After following the keto regimen really strictly for months now and my blood ketone meter consistently showing values of around 2,5 mmol/L in the morning, I wanted to stir things up a bit. So yesterday, I started some sort of experiment, trying to answer the following question for myself:

Do absolute or relative macros count? What I mean by that is whether me getting kicked out of ketosis by a higher intake of carbs and protein are demand-driven processes (as is the case with gluconeogenesis) or whether, say, anything above 50g of carbs will signal the body to rely less on ketones and switch its fuel source. If the former is true, then it shouldn’t matter whether I consume 20g or 100g of carbs or 100g or 300g of protein, provided that I scale up the fat intake accordingly (meaning relative to the higher carb/protein).

With that hypothesis in mind, I consumed as many calories as I could. I ended up with 12.148kcals, with 1.167g fat, 324g protein, 86g carbs.

Ketone bodies are 3,3 mmol/L this morning, my breathalizer’s indicator went through the roof.

Tentative conclusion so far: The macro ratios seem to matter for my case (N=1), not the absolute values. I am still deep in ketosis, despite consuming 85g carbs and 325g protein, because the fat still made 87% of the total calories consumed. I guess my body doesn’t see the need to shift its fuel source, if I provide enough fat.

I will be testing this further down the road with foods that have a very keto-friendly ratio like cream, macadamias and the like: if my theory is correct I cannot technically “overeat” these foods as far as getting kicked out of ketosis.

So what I want to do the next weeks is allowing my body to regenerate, eat/fast as I would do normally with a diversity of foods, then pick a date, pick a keto food I want to test and then only eat that particular food throughout the day.

Of course, consuming 300g of protein isn’t safe and I won’t be doing that any time soon. But with keto-friendly food like cream and macadamias specifically, this testing should be easy to do. For example, I would have to consume beyond 4.2 pounds of macadamias to end up with only 150g of protein. So I won’t put my health in jeopardy by doing that.

I am excited to see whether I am correct or not.


Appendix: I figure, some of you might ask, therefore let me get this out of the way: I gained 3.5 pounds overnight, the majority of it being water weight (I ate a lot of salty foods like fatty cheese and fatty sausage). Tomorrow, I will be at my starting weight, guaranteed (not the first time I ate MANY more calories than my body needed). This goes to show that CICO is bullsh*t and how difficult it is to consistently gain weight on keto. Your body just balances out things for you. Have faith, keep calm and keto on!


(James storie) #2

Now, this is interesting!


(Chris) #3

wot

I would argue that 4 pounds of macadamias would kill you a hell of a lot faster.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

Just a note to say that 85 g of carbs is still below Dr. Phinney’s limit of 100-125 g that he says will get you into nutritional ketosis. Remember that the forums’ recommendation of no more than 20 g is to make sure that even people who are badly insulin-resistant can get into ketosis, whereas Dr. Phinney’s recommendation is for average people.


#5

oh! I didn’t know that. I still have a bunch of Phinney videos that I keep meaning to watch.

Mark Sisson has always used 50- 150g as the range for Primal guidelines (on the low end if you’re insulin resistant and/or have weight to lose, higher end if you tolerate carbs and at a goal weight and health). In his keto recommendations, Sisson uses 50g (net) for active folks and 20g for sedentary.

I’m surprised that 100-125g would get folks into nutritional ketosis but I know Phinney knows his stuff so I’m sure there’s some decent basis for this.


(German Ketonian) #6

No worries. I am not going to do that. Just an example of what I meant by more keto-friendly foods.


(German Ketonian) #7

That’s interesting! I will then slightly adapt my approach to make sure I eat beyond 150g of carbs and perhaps trim down protein instead to 100g or so


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

If you do, I’d be very interested in the results.


(German Ketonian) #9

I’ll be sharing them here. So my adapted makeup then is this:

I will keep my ratios of roughly 80-85% calories coming from fat, but making sure I crack the 150g carb ceiling. To achieve that and keep the ratios, I’ll probably consume less protein.

I hope I will also be able to test, if different carbs kick me out of ketosis while others won’t. Example 1: I eat keto the whole day and hit the 150g carb mark, or I eat keto the whole day with low carb intake and then have a piece of bread, a coffee with sugar or what have you…


#10

A good N=1 would be to set a calorie limit, e.g. 3000, keep carbs at 20-30, g and adjust fat/protein ratio starting at 90:10 and continuing to 50:50 to see what it does to your ketone levels. Maybe put a day of whatever your “normal” eating is in-between.


#11

Also, this shows that you are insulin sensitive, right?


(German Ketonian) #12

Good point. Probably going to set mine to 3000-5000 kcals. And then shift fat/protein/carbs ratios.


(German Ketonian) #13

How does this relate to insulin? Could you elaborate?


(Ethan) #14

It is well understood that insulin-sensitive individuals can keep ketosis with more carbohydrates in the diet than can insulin-resistant individuals. There was a comment above about Dr. Phinney saying that ketosis can be achieved with up to 125g carbohydrates. That is true for insulin sensitive individuals. Those of us with entirely broken metabolisms–we are insulin resistant–can sometimes not even consume 20g a day and stay in ketosis! So this n=1 experiment has the assumption that it applies only to insulin-sensitive individuals–if that is what you are.


(German Ketonian) #15

Thanks! That’s good news for me as I worry about my high fasting blood glucose levels. Then this is most likely physiological insulin resistance as a result of my diet, I guess.


(Erin Macfarland ) #16

What on earth did you eat?? I have definitely consumed that many calories eating carbs but I think it would be hard on keto foods without feeling ill…


#17

You remained in ketosis with that many carbs and protein. Somebody with poor insulin sensitivity would not have done well with either. I don’t have the study at hand but it was shown that fat intake actually doesn’t help lessen glucose impact. Have you ever been obese or diabetic?


(German Ketonian) #18

:slight_smile: No, that was really easy. I can chug down 200ml of olive oil, or eat 2 sticks of butter straight out of the package without feeling ill. Combine that with cream, cheese, macadamias, sausages and so and and you’re up there calorie-wise really quickly.


(Ethan) #19

How high is your fasting glucose? This is all very interesting. Maybe it is true for all, but current theories would say that an insulin-resistant individual would consume 80+g carbs and have high insulin levels such that ketosis is blocked.


(Allie) #20

Once you’re adapted to being a fat burner your tolerance for carbs is often much higher