Talk about a CONTROLLED study!

#42

I do not believe in conspiracy theories related to food. Sure someone covers up some food debacle where a bunch of people get ecoli, yes that I would believe. The idea that an entire industry wants to keep us fat, I really do not @CaptainKirk

Most people go to school, study hard, believe what their professors say. The professors were taught that fruits and vegetables and whole grains good, saturated fats bad. Most professionals abide by do no harm, or at least not intentional harm. Their students then go out and preach whole grain, fruits and vegetables. Their patients, if you tell them that fruit is not ideal for some people look at you astounded and simply do not believe you. I had this recently with a young man I met who is on a whole food diet through a nutritionist. When you hear a nutritionist, either in their office or on a podcast say that saturated fat contributes to diabetes, it is hard even for me not to take them at their word.

Many studies have examiner bias built in. There was an article that discusses this


My impression is that it is unintentional. When studies are not correct, how can the advice be correct?
I credit reading Jason Fung for going Keto. He had extensive articles on his blog that made so much sense. Even so, when talking about saturated fat, I wondered. I still listen to as many podcasts as I can because the advice does change

As for losing weight and keeping it off, that seems to be individual. Your body has a set point and will do whatever it can to get back to it. I never realized how much that controls your weight until I talked to my cousin. She is shorter and slightly overweight, maybe could lose 15 lbs. Both her sisters are tiny, one naturally, one I think watches. She is not heavy but compared to them. She gave up dieting a long time ago. She said that she stays the same no matter what she does. If she under eats she gains it back, if she overeats, she loses it a few days later. This is not how it works for me. I would gain weight every time I ate too much. I listened to a podcast recently that said that for certain people the mechanism to regulate weight is broken once they become obese. This makes sense since I always had the fantasy that if I every got to 120 lbs or whatever, that my body would magically keep it off. Turns out most likely the opposite.

In my case I seem to get to a certain point, then I stall, then I go back up, then I get discouraged and then I quit. However, I always thought the go back up was because I was not sticking to the diet, not true, it is my body trying to get me back to my set point.

As for carts full of cereal, this is marketing but it is also your brain addicted to sugar. I did watch the Oprah Ozempic special. My favorite line was when she said that this takes away her interest in food. She always thought thin people had willpower, turns out many of them are not as food involved. The medication gives her the same power and that is why she is losing weight. A lot of this is genetic and hormones and I believe the potential for hormone problems are genetic as well. I have friends with one adopted kid and one biological kid. Their attitudes towards food and snacking are very different. The parents are heavy, the bio kid is heavy and always went for the snack drawer until his mom had to get rid of it. The adopted kid had an off switch, he would take one piece of candy and stop, he is not heavy

@Goldengirl52 metformin is an interesting and cheap medication. There are doctors in the longevity community who are studying it for potentially adding to lifespan or healthspan.

(Bob M) #43

Metformin is interesting.

Metformin does well with covid (whereas ivermectin does not):

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2201662

Metformin alone helped cure bipolar (but only for those taking metformin who had their insulin resistance corrected by metformin):

(Kirk Wolak) #44

Ah, let’s be clear NOBODY said they want us fat in this conspiracy. They want us buying their products. Even (especially) the ones that are NO GOOD for us. Becoming fat and metabolically damaged is a side-effect.

Then I believe they adopted the “Blame the Patient” because it’s easy. (Move more, eat less… Even though it fails 90% of the time).

But Kellogg FUNDED all of the Eggs are bad for you studies. And the ONLY way they could find “proof” was to use powdered eggs that oxidized. These are the tricks of the trade.

So, knowing WHAT the conspiracy is… Is important. They don’t want us fat. BUT they prefer us on the UNHEALTHY side, taking medicines. If you don’t believe me, my proof is… How many HOURS of Medical training have doctors received on DE-PRESCRIBING over the last 10-20 years? (It’s basically 0. Some (very few) schools are just introducing the topic). Why would you NOT teach people to De-Prescribe? (And who pays for the BOOKS they train the doctors from? The Drug Companies… Of course).

Now, it may not have started out with evil intent. But at some point. You know that the books cover (and down play) what they want.

Finally, I am NOT for government regulation in many cases. But here is one. Put a Chineses wall between a drug company and the study. Such that… A Horrible Study (maybe that shows statins can be dangerous), could ACTUALLY be published… Instead of buried (with NDAs that would destroy a researcher for even talking about it).

But I do not DEMAND anyone have my views. I prefer they do not, in fact. That makes it interesting, and I learn more.

Finally, MSG is a great example. It increases the calories consumed, especially in old folks homes. For me, it opens a RAVENOUS hunger. I avoid it like the plague.
So, we agree. Chemicals are involved. Hormones, etc. But what purpose does Doritos have in using a PET scanner while people eat their food? (to make sure it is addictive). Does that make it a Conspiracy? YES, because it involves more than ONE person, and they do not ADVERTISE “Engineered to trigger addiction Response”… And they also benefit from people being addicted to their products. I certainly was. A family sized bag was my SERVING. Mindlessly eating the entire bag.

(KM) #45

What did they know, and when did they know it. I think that’s a good question to look at when judging conspiracy vs. simply surprisingly unhealthy products. If a group of people knowingly buries information in the name of making bank - I’m looking at you, RJ Reynolds - I’d call that conspiracy.

To be fair, I don’t think MDs as a group are burying information or seeking poor health for their patients. They’re using the information they’re given without vetting it, a crime of ignorance more than anything.

#46

I make a distinction between products that are obviously unhealthy (Dorito), given information in ignorance or based on unintentionally biased science (such as the Food Pyramid) and real manipulation such as the tobacco companies claiming for years cigarettes were not dangerous when they knew otherwise.

Even a food that has been engineered to appeal subliminally is not something I worry about. That is capitalism, while it may be unhealthy and tempting, on some level you know it is bad and you choose it anyway (even if it is your ____ that causes you to want it). I was going to post something last week to ask why it is that nutrition experts still believe that fat is bad, that fiber is the solution to all dietary problems and keto is bad because meat is bad (exaggerating).

The nutrition experts really do believe what they are saying even if I disagree with them. They educate the public to believe it. To me the best and worst is that obesity was viewed as a choice for so long. Now it is finally being acknowledged by the experts that it is not simply eat less and exercise. Also, even when someone is educated, it is really hard for some people to lose weight. I can lose up to a point but then I stall. When I see families in the supermarket with generational obesity, I really try not to judge (not easy) and really think about that it is not a choice. Years ago, a friend with lifelong obesity (her mom would restrict her snacks when she was 2) thought it was all about emotional eating. I told her no, with my second pregnancy I would forget to eat, it was not a priority. Her thought was, my new friend is very nice but she does not know. Twenty years later the same friend lost lots of weight with IM

I am curious about this idea that the egg studies saying they were bad involved powdered eggs. Anyone have more information on that

(KM) #47

After being acquired by R.J. Reynolds in 1985 and becoming part of RJR Nabisco, Nabisco was sold in 2000 to Philip Morris Companies (renamed Altria Group, Inc.), which was the parent company of Kraft Foods. Nabisco’s brands were thereafter marketed by Kraft.

So they all lied through their teeth for five decades about cigarettes and they’re playing a game of musical beds between tobacco and food companies, but they’re being transparent as window panes about the effects of junk food?:thinking:

#48

Indeed but even when eating little is the one and only way for someone, it easily can be practically impossible. I have that and I even know the good method, I just can’t bring myself to follow it. But I am trying… But with my old diets including my original keto, I would have NO chance… Now I have some theoretical one at least.

Some has some physical, hormonal problem, others psychological ones, surely many have both… It can be super hard even if we definitely would never choose to be fat (my motivation could be better though. I always was fat, always felt healthy, it’s normal to me but I do know it would be better to change, I just won’t sacrifice things or use willpower for it. maybe one day).

#49

It’s too bad there is no haha reaction!

I understand. I guess my point is that no one eats an orea thinking it is healthy. There are people who would consider a Ritz Cracker to be a reasonable thing to give their kids, I know I did years ago. The problem is that many people do not realize that a Ritz Cracker is white flour which breaks down easily into sugar, because they have not been educated. Not because they are so tempting in the same way as cookies or doritos.

@Shinita I think what they are learning is that weight and metabolism is not about will power. It is about hormone regulation and genetics, muscles. One podcast I listened to said the homeostasis part is in an autonomic part of your brain, which is outside your control through willpower. While I hope to not be obese at some point, I am happy that obesity is finally being recognized as a disease rather than a character choice

(Doug) #50

Definitely, and this is an enormous thing, I feel, even as people think they are more aware about ‘sugar.’

I married into a big Italian family. So… Pasta. Big plates of spaghetti. Big. Like 10 ounces or 280 grams big, so that’s roughly a 200 gram hit of carbohydrates right there.

Not complaining about the family at all - it’s a great family and I’m a lucky guy to be in, and to be fair - I’m the only one that is a diagnosed diabetic, to my knowledge. But the subject has come up, “Starch is essentially just sugar molecules joined together, and your body takes care of that right away, and what have you got in your bloodstream? Sugar.”

(Bob M) #51

You can take that hit as long as you eat very low fat. It’s possible to eat very high carb and be insulin sensitive (eg, the potato diet), but you have to avoid fat. It’s what I ate for years.

The problem comes in when you add fat.

One thing the companies have done is try to pin the culprit as calories. Because if eating 200 calories of ice cream (or potato chips or Oreos or whatever they are selling) is the same as 200 calories of beef, then all the blame can go to the person, and none to the "calories’.

The issue comes in when we all figure out that eating ice cream/potato chips/Oreos isn’t the same at eating beef. For me, if I’m eating meat, I get to a certain point and I’m done. You’d have a hard time getting me to eat more. But I could always eat more ice cream/potato chips/Oreos, and furthermore, I’d want to eat more. I have to stop myself.

Note to self: Do hormones control this? If not, what does?

(Doug) #52

I remember Richard talking about a small ‘metabolic landing zone’ where high-carb works all right, but indeed - it has to be very low-fat.

I don’t think it’s practical to expect that ‘western’ diets are going to be able to stay away from fat, there. Potato chips - it will depend on the brand, but they are commonly like 35% fat by weight. Not saying a ‘western diet’ ℎ𝑎𝑠 to include potato chips, though. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::smile: What a world we live in…

Spaghetti - the sauce is usually going to have some fat. Meatballs, sausage chunks, hunks of pork (my family always has these in addtion to spaghetti) or meat in the sauce - fat’s there.

No question about it, for most of us. Meat, eggs, cheese - I get satisfied and go many hours without really even thinking about food.

When I was first out of my parents’ house and in an apartment, I’d boil a bunch of potatoes (like literally 7 or 8 of them) and add butter, salt and pepper and eat them all, a great big, honkin’ bowl of them like a mixing bowl. I remember lying on my bed, painfully full, yet wanting to eat more.

Hormones are huge, here. The ‘satiation’ or ‘satisfaction’ hormones versus the ‘hunger’ or ‘appetite’ ones. Standard stuff, like the big insulin response to carbs, down goes the blood sugar, maybe down too far and poof now we’re hungry again.

#53

@Saphire: It’s complicated (why people get fat and how they could lose fat) but avoiding unnecessary, whimsical eating is willpower to me. I probably could stop that with determination or something. As I don’t use willpower, per se. When I was a high-carber, I overate as carbs made me hungry and I ate in a way to be very satiated all day except right before my meals (it wasn’t all the reason for me to eat much but I couldn’t avoid overeating without being super hungry). Now it’s usually not hunger, I just fancy food and can’t say no (don’t even try. sometimes I feel more determined, not now).
Whatever other people’s problem, I know I am fat because I eat so very much, without hunger. So yep, a tiny willpower wouldn’t be a bad thing. Probably wouldn’t help as nothing does but still, I would feel I tried a little.

My SO has it with a bunch of carbs… I don’t. I will get hungry soon unless I eat a special diet and an OMAD sized meal but that’s very tricky (well it’s very easy on high-carb… or was in the past).
But yes, some meats work WAY better. Others keep me hungry. 1kg chicken never managed to satiate me, odd. Cheese has zero chance, eggs are okay but not superb (my most satiating item on vegetarian keto, no wonder I couldn’t lose any fat…). Red meat is the winner for me but if it’s very fatty, I overeat.
One thing I have learned about satiation: it’s extremely individual. Some people can’t get satiated without a bunch of sugar, super weird but they apparently exist. My SO has satiation problem on low-carb (it’s delayed, he overeats due to big hunger and then feels too full) but he can’t even do a whole low-carb day, only a meal. There are ways but those are exceptions. But his HCHF meals work perfectly this far.
We should figure out what works for us. Carbs, fats and certain proteins are very bad for my satiation so I mostly avoid them (or pair them with better things). Red meat is my focus in good days. But chicken and vegs work for others and almost anything work for anothers… Carbs go towards satiation in my SO’s case (about the same as protein or fat) while they made me hungry in my past (I suspect it’s not the case anymore but it may be because my body doesn’t want them in big amounts so it just turns off hunger now). We humans are just very different from each other despite all having human bodies… Hunger and appetite even have mental factors… Let alone food consumption. As not everyone need hunger or appetite to eat (possibly too) much…

Again? I fail to get satiated in the first place if my macros are off. Actually, carbs have a very good longer term satiation effect on me I think. It’s the immediate one that is lacking. If I manage to get satiated with a carby meal, it will last long! I still need my high protein and high fat or else it won’t work so it’s probably too much food but the satiation is very, very good. Or too much, that may happen too but not on OMAD.
I had no satiation problems even on my HCLF day (I did one once out of curiosity. I don’t plan to repeat it). So a bunch of carbs alone isn’t enough to make someone hungry soon, it depends on the person and the actual food too. Carnivore food often makes me hungry WAY sooner than my old carby meals did but it’s about mealsize. The calories, I mean as the weight and volume doesn’t matter to me. But many other people are different regarding that.

#54

While I would never tell anyone I do not know what to believe, and it is very individual, for me whimsical eating (perfect word) is not about willpower. I thought it was for many years. Several things made me realize it was not. Even eating keto (would never go carnivore, not food I enjoy for me but great for those who enjoy) I would want to snack after dinner. It used to amaze me that I could go for 5 days without eating and it was not a big deal. Having a meal at 8pm would trigger me to be searching for snacks the rest of the evening. My off switch simply did not work. Since I have stopped eating at 5, I am much better able to control not eating. Seems strange that I can not eat but not limit my food after dinner

Next, when I was pregnant with my second child over 20 years ago (preketo) I was overweight when I got pregnant (as opposed to my first where I was not). At some point in the pregnancy I lost interest in snacking. Normally when eating SAD, if I went to a family gathering, I would look forward to dessert. I would be talking but also thinking when it was ok for me to have more cake or whatever. I could easily have 2 or 3 slices and only stop because otherwise it was rude.

When I was pregnant that did not happen. I would eat a normal meal, only have one helping of whatever (unusual for me) and sometimes I would have the cake but I would often forget to get a second piece. Sometimes I forgot to get the first piece. This is not normal but what happens when you are satiated. Even now, if I am trying to be compliant, I will skip dessert, or have a little and then move on. This was a lightening moment for me, that eating really was not about willpower but about interest, cravings, none of which are within your control if you are eating carbs.

@OldDoug the high carb low fat is supposedly the reason that the Pritikin and Ornish diets work. I think fat has to be under 10% although I could be mistaken

#55

No but some willpower could solve it. But it’s not my way so I try to find another route.
I am very much aware that whatever I do it’s not something I just have as changing my woe made huge differences. Willpower would be the quick sure solution as in the case of my SO. He quickly slims down if he wants, no matter the woe. My method needs decades or forever, I put huge efforts into it, huge dietary changes… And nope, no fat-loss. I can wait but waiting solves nothing, I need to do better and it hardly will happen without some willpower at some point. Sure, I need a good woe to feel fine, satiated and satisfied while losing fat but I still need to stick to it and I can’t imagine how on earth I could do it without at least determination, I tried everything, I trained myself, I figured out the realistic method for me… Now I need to push a bit harder, getting out of my comfort zone.

These aren’t in my control, no matter my woe. I love eating on every woe, some food choices help but I can’t stick to them, I get super bored.
Plant carbs do tend to mess things up for me (not for everyone) but even without them, I am still not set. And I can’t stick to it :frowning: But I keep trying and focus on lunch skipping too, it is probably a must for me too and doable if I just wait until I need food (but I don’t). And fat fast days. Without them, I couldn’t handle the (for me) awfully low fat intake I need for fat-loss.

But I feel bad about writing about this, it’s my problem, my fault (even though I am very much aware I have a harder time with fat-loss on keto as I automatically eat too much and it’s very tricky not to do it so I fail) and I will eventually reach my goals - or not. Me being fat isn’t among my important problems in life, I am just stubborn and anyway, it would be nice to have an okay fat percentage first in my adult life (I was a slightly chubby kid too).

(Denise) #56

All this time I’ve refused Meformin and now I’m seeing studies from Pub Med where it is doing wonders?? Why didn’t I hear any of this when I first got here, about Metformin? It can cure IR, just for one thing??

(Kirk Wolak) #57

I dated a dietitian. Behind the scenes, she had lipo done (in secret). Despite following her own advice. And advising against KETO.

The danger here… Is she comes from the “I can trust headlines from XYZ”.
Without looking into them.

What makes it evil is looking into the lawsuits, and finding out… Those companies KNEW they were lying, and were attacking Gary Fettke. Because he hurt their profits. 2 Layers of management below the decision makers. They may not have a clue. They are just doing their jobs. The talking heads on TV repeat this.

I still remember one morning Katie Couric made a comment that she avoids BREAD because it makes her gain weight. (LOL, Keto was around in Hollywood a long time before it became popular). And the NEXT MORNING she had to do a mea culpa, while the show had this special breakfast (of breads/cereals) on about how healthy it can be and the trick is to avoid the FAT…

Do I blame Ms. Couric? Nope. I don’t even know if the producers knew.
But SOMEONE from Kellogg or some such made a PHONE Call. And unless they wanted to lose all that juicy ad money… They had better make this right. And they did. And that person probably argued “You all know it’s the FAT!”

(Edith) #58

Makes me a little nauseous!

(Jane) #59

One of my neighbors knows we eat low carb so she brought us fruit instead of cookies for Christmas one year. And fixed corn and potatoes since they are vegetables for a dinner party so they must be ok! Even Weight Watcher years ago put corn and potatoes into their Bread exchange category, so you had to limit them. Low carb vegetables were not limited.

She is 80 years ago so I am kind to her because she has been thin all her life, never limited what she ate (one of the lucky ones) so it’s not something that would interest her to look into further. i.e. what is really a carb LOL.

(Jane) #60

I cook nearly every night and shop the “edges of the store” but I can’t say I never use processed foods in my cooking, but it is the exception, not the rule. I use Rao’s spaghetti sauce because it has no sugar… and yes, convenient. I can whip up a pan of angel hair cabbage in spaghetti sauce in about 15 minutes.

We do a lot of grilling and smoking meats - especially in the summer to not heat up the house. And of course lots of eggs since I have my own small flock of hens. And always a salad to go with it in the summer when my garden is producing. I do fry my garden okra in tallow but I do not bread it. I “dust” it with flour so there is probably only a tablespoon in the whole batch and fry until cripsy.

So we don’t eat a perfectly strict diet but our carbs are still low - some days very low - and we fast once a month for autophagy and are healthier than any of our neighbors eating a SAD diet knock on wood.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #61

It would be nice if that turns out to be true, but read the study carefully. Metformin is a very safe drug, effective, and with minimal side effects, but like anything else, it’s not a miracle cure.